Owen's Practice Journal, Part II

Owen, I've been wondering what the actual experience of good
concentration is. Would sticking to the object with only
some short thought fragments in the background qualify?
Or is it such a lock there are no thoughts? Or even a loss of
self-consciousness? Thanks for sharing your journal!

"Owen, I've been wondering what the actual experience of good
concentration is. Would sticking to the object with only
some short thought fragments in the background qualify?
Or is it such a lock there are no thoughts? Or even a loss of
self-consciousness? Thanks for sharing your journal! "

The way i see it kachaapa, getting concentrated initially doesnt mean there are no thoughts but directed thought.

This I think is key to using 100% of the brain's capacity to zone in on the object of concentration. if you just stare at the object with the mind or the eyes, then you may have a large percentage of that capacity free to roam and wander. Direct your thoughts as they come up towards the object. Visualize them if you have to. Shape the thoughts into notes of the object if you have to, but keep them falling towards the object. If it is the breath, then contemplate how the breath goes in long or short and goes out long or short, or heavy or light or this or that. Don't just stare at the breath, but direct the thoughts towards the characteristics of what you are observing. This way there will be no stray thoughts floating off into yonder but flowing directly to the object.

Here are some things you could contemplate at the same time as staring.....the length of the breath, the touch of the breath, the moment the mind wanders from the breath (this one is like the waiting for the next thought excercise, the result is similar), the concept of the breath as you sense it going in and out, the perception of the perception of the breath. This also can be practiced with any other object.

Edited to add, this is for at least the 1st jhana where directed thought is key. At 2nd jhana that directed thought drops away. But if thoughts are making it hard to get concentrated, use them to your advantage and rain them in and direct them to the object.

Just my 2 cents.

Notice in the following explanations of the jhanas taken from wiki, that in the 1st jhana, directed thought is the first factor of the 1st jhana. It drops away at the 2nd jhana. In the jhana guided tour videos with Kenneth, I explained it as a feeling of effort. That effort is related to the directing of thought.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_in_Bud...The_Rupa_Jh.C4.81nas


First Jhāna - In the first jhana there are - "directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention"

Second Jhāna - In the second jhana there are - "internal assurance, rapture, pleasure, unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention"

Third Jhāna - In the third jhana, there are - "equanimity-pleasure, unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention"

Fourth Jhāna - In the fourth jhana there are - "a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness; unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention".[11]

Hey kachaapa,
What Nick said.

I will add though that my experience during concentration practice does go from a wildly disturbed mind to thoughts not really being apparent at all. Proto thoughts... almost like gurgles. Eventually those will drop out also, but it takes ton of lead in time. The critical thing is that concentration practice be done daily for at least 20 minutes. Missing a day will set you back more than a bit.

I've also gotten a good deal more focused given a recent asthma diagnosis. Not being able to breathe makes concentrating on the breath so much easier. It turns out it is important for more than just a kasina.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/34...+Thing+Concentration ...

Food for thought. The choice in translation of the word "concentration" is misleading to many people, IMHO.

Hi Chris,

Not that I have a probem with the word "concentration" but when you wrote this:

".. but is it really? Yes, we're "concentrating" in a way, but the use of the word is a bit misleading. It used to make me think I had to bear down one thing. Really get that ONE THING in my mind and that there should be nothing else in there. Nothing. Well, guess what? That's just not so. Very often a wider field of attention is better, and when I'm in a jhana it does't feel like concentrating at all, at least not in the usual western meaning of the word. I wonder how many beginning practitioners get confused by how we use this word?" Chris

Were you already post-path? I think there is a big difference with experience of the jhanas pre-path versus post path. I could be wrong of course as Im relying on my own experience. The jhanas post-1st for me were extremely accesible and no bearing down was needed and they were much more inclusive and wider. There wasn't any bearing down on anything. But I would argue that access is much different pre versus post 1st.

I really am not an expert at this. Directing thought to me was what I had to do when the 5 hindrances were strong to get to at least 1st jhana. And this entailed a little "bearing down". Once 1st path or 2nd path, those hindrances seemed to lessen, at least for myself and thus I didn't have to force anything afterwards. But previous to 1st path, directing the flow of thought and mind towards the object of concentration took some effort. .

Nick

At a certain point it became bone crushingly clear to me that the generally understood meaning of the word "concentration" did not describe what I was experiencing, and thus the misunderstanding of that word as transcribed from the suttas and other places might mislead people, like it misled me, into thinking that I sucked at something that was actually already happening as freely and as easily as falling asleep at night.

"
At a certain point it became bone crushingly clear to me that the generally understood meaning of the word "concentration" did not describe what I was experiencing, and thus the misunderstanding of that word as transcribed from the suttas and other places might mislead people, like it misled me, into thinking that I sucked at something that was actually already happening as freely and as easily as falling asleep at night.

"

Did it become "bone-crushingly clear" pre or post path?

Nick, I'm purposely avoiding the path issues you are raising because I think it obfuscates the rather simple point a bunch of us were making in that thread I linked to -- the word "concentration" can be misleading.

"
Nick, I'm purposely avoiding the path issues you are raising because I think it obfuscates the rather simple point a bunch of us were making in that thread I linked to -- the word "concentration" can be misleading.

"

Ok, but I'm a little confused as to why you'd say that there is no bearing down needed. I do agree that after the 1st jhana, a "bearing down" approach is not needed at all and concentration, which you have a problem with as a descriptive term, does not really convey what happens in the later jhanas. I agree that the focus is wider and more inclusive in later jhanas.

Did you practice jhanas before 1st path and did you find that it was not necessary to "bear down" on solely one object whether it was pleasant sensations, the breath or kasina etc to get to 1st jhana? It would be useful to know for others pre-path who do not have easy access to at least the 1st jhana to know how you went about getting to 1st jhana pre-path without "bearing down".

For me it was necessary to maintain the flow of mind continuously on one object to get to 1st jhana pre-path. Post 1st path it was not necessary as the will of the mind was enough to direct it there. I'm just asking for clarification about the notion of "bearing down". I'm not being argumentative, Chris. I'm actually very curious and think if we could clarify this for pre-pathers, it would help. I'm only talking from my own experience. I don't know what your experience was. Please share it or provide a link somewhere...or not.

And on second thought perhaps we are confusing the idea of bearing down with our own interpretations of what bearing down means. Perhaps there are differing degrees of "bearing down" and yes, there can be extreme cases of "bearing down" which do not take a middle path and can result in having a negative view of our own progress and concetration abilties.

"Did you practice jhanas before 1st path and did you find that it was not necessary to "bear down" on solely one object whether it was pleasant sensations, the breath or kasina etc to get to 1st jhana? It would be useful to know for others pre-path who do not have easy access to at least the 1st jhana to know how you went about getting to 1st jhana pre-path without "bearing down".

For me it was necessary to maintain the flow of mind continuously on one object to get to 1st jhana pre-path. Post 1st path it was not necessary as the will of the mind was enough to direct it there. I'm just asking for clarification about the notion of "bearing down". I'm not being argumentative, Chris. I'm actually very curious and think if we could clarify this for pre-pathers, it would help. I'm only talking from my own experience. I don't know what your experience was. Please share it or provide a link somewhere...or not."

Hi Everyone,

I haven't gotten to first path, and "bearing down" is certtainly one reasonable description of what getting into the 1st jhana entails. I can't incline the mind towards the first jhana and just pop in; I have to stay with (bear down on) the sensation breath at the anapana spot until piti arises, then I just stay with the piti-saturated breath. After reviewing the second jhana after I first got there, it felt contained without me doing the containing, with the first jhana feeling like I was "doing the containing" by comparison. It's the active doing of the first two jhana factors vitakka (initial application) and vichara (sustained apllication)

Eric

My 2 cents:
Concentration can appear very differently depending on the particular strata of mind. I would posit that a good working definition would be the length of time one can remain distinctly aware of a chosen object.

The word "concentration" might be less useful than attention. If I can pay attention to a set of sensations (despite changes in focus from narrow to diffuse) without interruption I will eventually become absorbed in them, then I move through the jhanas using very small amounts of effort to examine the state. (vipassana) If I'm so absorbed I can't investigate, I stay in that jhana until I get too tired and can't maintain attention and will eventually fall back out of jhana.

The difference in experience between jhanas accessed via samatha vs vipassana is staggering. I've been pushing my concentration practice pretty hard lately and during a sit last night I actually found myself nearly unable to stand the rapture of the first jhana. Just for fun I'm trying to hang out in it for over an hour. I lasted about 30 minutes before I got nearly overwhelmed and needed to stop.

The other interesting development that has shown up lately is a kind of 3rd gear very non-dualistic samadhi that I seem to slide into when I'm walking around in the city. I noticed a week or so ago that the objects in my perceptual field can easily take the place of my thoughts. It's as if the mind got very turned off by conceptual thinking but has been flailing about looking for something to replace it. So I look around, notice again that the boundary between myself and my environment is a relative construction and thus also an object in my awareness. Then I allow for my direct perceptions to take the place of my self-referential thoughts. *Wham* the self contraction instantly disappears - but I only notice it when it re-arises. When in this state I also seem to be getting an odd "tunnel" phenomenon that seems a bit like what Bernadette Roberts described. It's as if I'm being forced to look at something that I don't understand yet.

Just got up from an interesting sit.
About two minutes after getting situated, I found myself chucked straight into a long series of cessations. I tried going back to the breath over and over but I kept kept getting pulled right back into them. Eventually, I quit worrying about staying with the breath and let go into it and was pulled down into a very long nirvikalpa-jñāna. When it passed there was nothing left other than my body sitting on the cushion, thoughts streaming by and physical sensations. The sense of an autonomous agent went away for a good while. I remember being totally amazing how all of this works without any interference... the body just breaths by itself, the mind thinks all on its own and feelings keep arising. Nothing "I" need to do about this at all. The "I" is getting seen more and more as a filter into which the unborn keeps getting tripped up in. And because of the formations of my particular neuroses, it's been doing this for lifetimes. As I spend longer and longer periods without a sense of agency or conceit, that becomes more clear. It's nice to know you aren't needed.

Hi Owen,
Makes my life as a teacher and as a husband and father a whole lot easier, and a whole lot more interesting. And on it goes....
paul

"The difference in experience between jhanas accessed via samatha vs vipassana is staggering. I've been pushing my concentration practice pretty hard lately and during a sit last night I actually found myself nearly unable to stand the rapture of the first jhana. Just for fun I'm trying to hang out in it for over an hour. I lasted about 30 minutes before I got nearly overwhelmed and needed to stop. "

This is fascinating to me. I used to be kind of obsessed with getting into jhana via concentration practices and tried for years. Now, given what has happened in the insight side of things, I'm curious to try concentration again and see what happens.

Owen, do you think that your progress along the path (post-4th, etc) has allowed you this kind of absorption, or is the concentration needed a separate skill?

Hey Ron,
I never could have done this pre 4th. I didn't have the kind of surrender that in retrospect I find it takes. It probably also would have been kinda dangerous to try, the golden handcuffs that I was struggling with during my 3rd path days... I don't know if I could suffered my way out of them if I had the kind of concentration skills that I do today. Plus, I find now days I have much more of a sense of playful exploration which makes everything so much easier. That desperate quality to get the insight nonsense over with vanished, and I'm left with a bit more free time.

I'm excited to try my new little concentration experiment. I just picked up some cute little mala beads. There are 110 on the string and I going to try moving one each time I get through a breath count of 7, go around again with a breath count of 15 and one more time with 21. Once I get a stretch of free time I'm going to give it a shot. I pray that I don't wind up with gangrenous legs.

"Once I get a stretch of free time I'm going to give it a shot. I pray that I don't wind up with gangrenous legs.


"

Heh, not too crazy, maybe watch for gangrene in the latter cycles... with slower respirations due to concentration, it might stretch out a bit! Sounds like a really cool experiment.

1 minute / 12 respirations * count of 7 * 110 = 64 minutes

1/12 * 15 * 110 = 137.5 minutes = ~ 2 hours 15 minutes

1/12 * 21 * 110 = 192.5 minutes = ~ 3 hours 15 minutes

"Heh, not too crazy, maybe watch for gangrene in the latter cycles... with slower respirations due to concentration, it might stretch out a bit! Sounds like a really cool experiment.

1 minute / 12 respirations * count of 7 * 110 = 64 minutes

1/12 * 15 * 110 = 137.5 minutes = ~ 2 hours 15 minutes

1/12 * 21 * 110 = 192.5 minutes = ~ 3 hours 15 minutes



"

Or I just hyperventilate and get done in 20 minutes.

How do you say hyperventilation jhana in Pali?

I'm finding that an interesting sense of willingness is coming up lately. It seems as though I'm getting to the point where my neurotic crap feels a lot less real than my body sitting in this chair. The more I do the direct mode practices, the more "high stakes" this seems. It's as if I can live from a place of incredible mystery and non-separation or I can live from the ego and all of its projections, but never at the same time. I let go of my ideas and in an instant everything self liberates.

This morning:
30 minutes of samatha practice via counting and focusing on the movement of the breath as it passes the anapanasati spot. Just concentration, made a resolution not to go into jhana or anything else. When I got up, my right leg was asleep.

Hey Owen,

Do you find a conection between concentration practice and direct mode at all?

I don't mean that they are the same or similar, but I'm finding that if I do concentration practice then DM seems to be a bit more natural, as if there is some common denominator that they each have...

Hmm... I'd say that DM has a minimal concentration baseline requirement. If I'm below that threshold (say I don't practice for a while) it gets harder. Given that the natural inclination post 4th is to let formal practice slack I've got to be careful about that. Doing samatha makes DM possible. Actually, now that I think about it, concentration practice makes a lot of good things possible.