Owen's Practice Journal, Part II

The suffering is a little different, Yadid. It's hard to explain. If I had a choice, to suffer with a belief in a concrete self in place versus to suffer without that concrete self, I would choose the latter obviously. What is really suffering if the self is seen to be completely substanceless? The habitual tendencies to recoil at something not nice can still occur. But they are seen to be habitual tendencies as opposed to a a concrete self doing it's thing. Hmmm, I have other ideas as to why one still would say one "suffers".

But I should say practicing DM or rather what inhibits it from being practiced correctly at times could be habitual "stuff" that seems surface which perhaps was not looked at in too much depth previously, at least in my experience and perhaps for Owen too. This is hard to describe too. DM seems to be a process in in itself. A lot of deconstructing. Lots of little ego deaths, each time trying to put up a fight. The affective self may not want to go. And there can be some upheaval there if it is not "wanting" or ready for it. Juxtaposed with DM mode and the PCE, cycle mode can seem very different to when there was no choice in the matter. And we can still exaggerate with our descriptions at times. .

There is no suffering in DM mode, but out of it in cycle mode one is still put through the dark night. The untied knot of perception though changes the relationship to the dark night phenomena. We may complain about it, but I think that that is more out of habit than how bad it really is. Then again I am not Owen. The suffering for "me" is the "conceited affective me" that seems to pop it's head up now and then. There is a big difference to how it is all perceived to pre-4th.

And just for the record. I don't like the word arhatship. There I've said it. Nuff said.

You've answered my question pretty well Nick.
Thanks.

Perhaps Owen will also have one for me

Hey Yadid, I can't speak for Owen, only myself. Like Nick, I think a lot of us are really hesitant to use the word Arahatship. It carries a lot of baggage, to be honest I don't think what we call 4th path is what was originally intended by the word... But who knows... It comes down to Bill Hamilton's old saying, "Suffering Less noticing it more" If you are curious about the nature of the Dark Nights encountered post awakening the best source of data I have found by far is The Path to No Self by B Roberts... www.amazon.com/gp/product/0791411427/ref=oss_product

Finishing that phase of 1st gear practice is in my humble opinion still absolutely essential and worthwhile for any Yogi... Practice well...

Thanks Clayton.
I think Jack Kornfield expresses this well in his book After the Ecstasy, though I am more interested in personal reports such as yours, Nick's and Owen's.

And I agree and still feel it is important to practice. 3-day retreat starting tomorrow

Hey Yadid,
I'll finally chime in here .

There are a lot of painful things that can be experienced post 4th path. The difference is that they are not happening to anybody in particular, they are just simply happening. There is some flip that gets switched where suffering doesn't "stack" like it did before - I don't suffer simply because I'm suffering, but the fact of suffering remains. For the record I understand how bizarre that sounds, I wish I had a better way to put it. There is nobody I can call "me" that is suffering. That's the insight trip.

The dukkha nanas (dark night) still exists when I'm in cycle mode, and they aren't any fun. It can, however be really funny to watch myself flail about it in since I can't take it that seriously any more. Everything that was going on pre 4th path (outside of direct mode that is) is still progressing in it's own, empty mysterious kind of way. Karma is still in full force, often to my intense embarrassment. The thing is, now I have a damn nice platform to address it.

As to the model thing, the framework I'm talking about for pre-path to 4th path is the one described in the Visuddhimagga. Doing the Mahasi noting technique to move through the various strata of mind seems to be the most efficient way to do that.

The model that makes the most sense for my practice now days (attempting to stabilise in direct mode) is the 10 fetters model. I will say that I'm done with the progress of insight and the paths in the Mahasi model, however I haven't permanently ended conceit. Whether that can actually be accomplished in a final way is for me an open question, but there are modern people who have claimed to do so (Roberts, Ramana, the AF people).

Hopefully that clears it up a bit.


Figuring out how they relate to any other tradition is beyond my current pay grade.

Nicely Put, Owen! I concur.

Would it be going too far to say that, post-path, it's the cycles, rather than external stimuli, that dominate one's "emotional" life?

In the post-first path review phase, I feel a sense that my "normal", reactive emotional responses are still going on, but they just kinda open up then quickly seal up again, so that I am less likely to do lasting harm or get into a self-proliferating emotional "state". I have "moods", but they seem much less fixed and factual.

On the other hand, when I'm conscious of passing through a state that feels just like the symptoms of a "nana" from my pre-path cycle, there's absolutely nothing I can do about that, except wait it out with the most awareness I can muster. Those "moods" are much more compelling, unrelated to exterals, and they just seem to be the water I swim in, while they last. (Which, at the moment, never seems to be very long).

Does this balance just tip more and more toward the latter type of "mood" being dominant, as you go through the paths?

"What is the point of Arahatship if one still suffers from so called Dark Nights?"

I agree with Nikolai on the whole "Arahatship" title. There seems to be many different "definitions" of it, many of them pretty fantastic and fail to convey what 4th path really is. Regardless of definition, attaining to 4th path allows one to see the true nature of the manifest world, as well as the true nature of the non-localized, pure primordial awareness. No more illusion, no more fantasies. In my experience, one has now a choice to either get embeded in the human experience (embeded in the "sefl"), or to shift into DM/PCE mode and simply be awareness of the here and now. (dissolution of "self") . I konw that when I choose to embed myself in the human experience, it is no more real than a video game, emotions run high, stress and anxiety become present, etc. All the mental formations based on the sense of a "self" present the conditions for all the aobve mentioned emotions to arise. Cycles continue as they always did, and sometimes the stages can be felt stronger and more purely than before, yet their effect on the experience is different; these emotions arise and pass a lot quicker and they seem to leave no trace (unless one chooses to embed in them). I have noticed tha riding the arc, I can now get incredibly absorbed into each jhana within a few seconds, almost at will, while before it would take 30-40 min of really trying to become fully absorbed in a particular jhana). Calling out fruitions from any and/or all three doors happens with the same ease, etc. In short, now it seems like one has access to the full spectrum of experience, not only human experience, and I've noticed the ability to move around this spectrum at will is getting better with time. IMO, it seems even better than eradicating all 10 fetters permanently, simply because once that's done, there may be no way to experience the full spectrum of experience.

Hi Jorge,

I think I need to say that I'm still human whether I am in Direct mode or in cycle mode. There is never a moment when I stop "being" human. I feel more connected to this human body and experience when in Direct mode than in cycle mode. I like this Nick better. He is nicer, kinder, more patient, and more present than the random imagined personality that is Nick in cycle mode...

But seriously we should not start calling cycle mode , the "human experience" and the DM something that is not that. Part of the "human experience" is the experience the perception of the senses without a filter (self-contraction). We are not becoming less "human" because of this practice. We are not becoming robots now. In fact I would argue one becomes more and more intimate with the experience as a human being. Just without a filter.

Are you still in the honeymoon period? Hehe! Wait til you start to spiral...

Nick

"IMO, it seems even better than eradicating all 10 fetters permanently, simply because once that's done, there may be no way to experience the full spectrum of experience."

Its hard to say things like this definitively. I certainly would have agreed with you right after my satori experience this summer... But now I would disagree. I think so much of our perspective on these things is just a reflection of our current cutting edge. I am not saying my view currently is correct. I am saying the exact opposite. Things get pretty crazy in practice downfield, and I feel like almost any definitive statement I make will be recanted later...

No, as a newbie to these kinds of insight, the cycle mode is emphatically *not* the "human experience" as I recognized it before. It's actually abnormally sequential, predictable, and fatalistic, which nothing in life seemed to be previously. It's almost as if it has a function of demonstrating that "you" are not in control, over and over, til you get the point. I used to think I was driving a car on a highway, but then it turned out I just had one of those toy steering-wheels that toddlers play with in their car-safety seats. And I wasn't on a highway after all- it was a merry-go-round

This is really an interesting discussion.
Thanks for your reply Owen.
So would you say your goal is the complete end of suffering, as the Buddha put it?
Sorry for being a bit dogmatic, but I doubt he said "I still suffer, but the suffering isn't me".

Suffering is suffering whether it is I or not I. No?

It's definitely my goal. The end of suffering that is. Whether with or without an "I", suffering is suffering, sublte or gross, no stacking or stacking. It always was my wish and goal. I just kind of put it away in the cupboard when I got introduced to Daniel Ingram's book and the model of enlightenment talked of so often here. I feel I'm just returning to walk the path I think may well take me to where I have always yearned to go. A returning to my roots so to speak. Which were always hardcore Theravadan. It's what Im drawn to.

"Hi Jorge,

I think I need to say that I'm still human whether I am in Direct mode or in cycle mode. There is never a moment when I stop "being" human. I feel more connected to this human body and experience when in Direct mode than in cycle mode. I like this Nick better. He is nicer, kinder, more patient, and more present than the random imagined personality that is Nick in cycle mode...

But seriously we should not start calling cycle mode , the "human experience" and the DM something that is not that. Part of the "human experience" is the experience the perception of the senses without a filter (self-contraction). We are not becoming less "human" because of this practice. We are not becoming robots now. In fact I would argue one becomes more and more intimate with the experience as a human being. Just without a filter.

Are you still in the honeymoon period? Hehe! Wait til you start to spiral...

Nick
"

I see what you are saying, Nick. I guess what I was trying to convey is that there are all these thoughts, emotions that arise based on the notion of "self" that simply do not arise in DM. Even when they do in "normal/ 1st gear" they seem to behave differently than they did before (in my experience, a lot of times they feel cleaner and more crisp. They arise and pass quickly with little or no trace) . It's certainly not "robot" like in any way, shape or form (at least in my experience) on the contrary. The "intimacy" with the phenomena feels uniquely vibrant.
I do hate using terms like "cycle mode", "human experince", etc. So many of these experiences and shifts of awareness seem so difficult to illustrate. :-/
...Good question about the honeymoon period. It feels sometimes I am, and sometimes I'm not...

"Its hard to say things like this definitively. I certainly would have agreed with you right after my satori experience this summer... But now I would disagree. I think so much of our perspective on these things is just a reflection of our current cutting edge. I am not saying my view currently is correct. I am saying the exact opposite. Things get pretty crazy in practice downfield, and I feel like almost any definitive statement I make will be recanted later... "

....is this due to the spiral?? LOL

There must be a mapable developmental phase post 4th path. I seem to find my current cutting edge goes hand and hand with lots of the things you Nick and Owen experienced a few months back. Right now I'm in the whole "no self" stage and noticing how the sense of "self" starts to creep in. It feels like an experiment of going "no self" then letting it appear, then taking it away, then letting it appear, etc. and noticing the whole process in an almost scientifc way. At this time, I think I'm pretty satisfied with being able to shift around without the need of having to permanently eliminate the arising of phenomena leading to suffering (eh..........I guess Nick is right. I'm still honeymooning!

I think one of the interesting questions of 4th path--as we define it hear--is how much 3rd gear you've at that point. I think this is variable--some yogis have more, some less. I would say in my case I didn't have a lot, only some. Though the best glimpses and insights into 3rd gear all definitely happened right around the time I was moving towards 4th path, so there is likely some connection.

I don't know the Buddhist lit well, but I would fully back off from any discussion that places our version of 4th path at the top of any attainment summit. I don't hear people doing this, but just to be clear.

Here is how I would define 4th path at this moment: 4th path is what prepares you for fuller exploration of the 3rd gear realms. That's it. I would emphasize "prepare" in the sense that some foundational tools and insights are stable and in place, but everything still needs work. Nothing--no insight, tool, practice, or energetic pathway--has truly been maxed out, if they ever even can be.

I say this in light of recent experiences I've had, ones I've heard here, as well as re-reading of traditional and modern accounts of full enlightenment (more like constant DM or its analogues in other traditions). If we take those accounts seriously, 4th path just doesn't cut that standard. And that's totally okay.

Mark

I want to say that I really like this place.
It is inspiring to share thoughts and experiences with you all, and it is helping me push further in my practice and life, and it is hard.
Like minded people are so important on this path.

I like what Mark said. Nicely put. 4th path just seems like a jumping point for so many different routes one can take. Ooh, which one do I choose??? I feel like Alice in Wonderland. Hehe! But yeh, I think it all boils down to one's own inclination. Some wish to discover how they work, emotions and all. Some wish to become bodisattvas and do bodhisattvaish things. Some wish to just "let it be". Some may wish to merge with "god". Some may wish to eradicate the last little remnants of what they consider suffering. Some may use there new 4th path tools for all sorts of things.

It's a smorgasboard. How much of it is purely choice, I have no idea. But I like the variety. It adds colour to the world.

I'm working a double shift so brain...not...working...:9

P.S. A good article by Jack Kornfield on the many "enlightenments".
www.inquiringmind.com/Articles/Enlightenments.html

"I like what Mark said. Nicely put. 4th path just seems like a jumping point for so many different routes one can take. Ooh, which one do I choose??? I feel like Alice in Wonderland. Hehe! But yeh, I think it all boils down to one's own inclination. Some wish to discover how they work, emotions and all. Some wish to become bodisattvas and do bodhisattvaish things. Some wish to just "let it be". Some may wish to merge with "god". Some may wish to eradicate the last little remnants of what they consider suffering. Some may use there new 4th path tools for all sorts of things.

It's a smorgasboard. How much of it is purely choice, I have no idea. But I like the variety. It adds colour to the world.

I'm working a double shift so brain...not...working...:9

P.S. A good article by Jack Kornfield on the many "enlightenments".
www.inquiringmind.com/Articles/Enlightenments.html
"

It is a wonderful spectrum indeed!
I guess August Leo was right: Enlightenment is just the beginning!

...and that Jack Kornfield article is pretty money!

Thanks Nick!

And thanks for the Kornfield article--awesome stuff!

Mark

Wow, haven't posted here in a while.

Interesting day from a practice perspective. I've gotten back to the cushion big time. About a half hour of shikantaza, followed by around 6 or 7 trips up the arc to J13 and back. My head feels like it is about to pop off; I might have overdone it just a touch.


Couple of trips up the arc were done w/ Nick via skype. He had some good insights about the name/form entanglement of the self-contraction, so we explored going through the nanas with that in mind. As this gets deeper, it begins to look like mental and physical phenomena are all that remains - the style of noting is reflecting that. Noting vocabulary is also getting simpler. At first it was mind states, emotions, categories of thoughts, sense doors etc. Now it's coming down to just noting mental and physical phenomena. And a fun discovery, if you simply note phenomena as phenomena without categories, it can be done with such speed that I found myself getting dragged up the arc and into NS in under three minutes.
It actually felt like getting violently thrown into NS.

It's funny how Nick and I were coming to the same conclusion via somewhat different routes, he was noting mental/physical, I was directing all my attention to the physical and cutting off mental chatter. Both ways lead to the self contraction dropping out.

Sounds like fun Owen,
Say.. when self-contraction drops out, whats left?

What's left?
Seeing, feeling, hearing, smelling, tasting, thinking.

The Self-contraction is nothing but nama and rupa. The illusion is that there is a concrete "self". The illusion continues if a yogi is thinking that a temporary "self" is contracting. Ultimately, there is nothing more than mind and body, materiality and immateriality, mental and pysical, name and form. Every experience can be boiled down to nama and rupa and the interplay, cause and effect relationship between the two. One can dig deep and begin to see the mind/body process post-4th path quite easily if so inclined. The mind/body organism is shown what is comfort and what is discomfort. And thus comes out of blind reaction and self-created suffering. It will see how the residual habitual energy that remains after attaining 4th path, is but a continuation of the habitual ignorance which was seen through to great degree once the knot of percpetiion was untied. Now, it seems, a 4th pather is able to purify the view of not-self 100% by seeing, in realtime, the mind/body interaction as it is. Not as it seems to be, as this could be influenced by the mind's residual tendency to read and interpret phenomena incorrectly. By seeing, in real time, the interaction of mind and body, one does not identify an illusory sense of "being" or "self" with any pleasant, unpleasant or neutral phenomena. And thus no stress arises as a result even though those phenomena still arise. There is no need to seek a way to stop those phenomena from arising. All one has to do is change the way the mind interprets and reads it all. Post 4th, it appears this is an organic continuation of the path that can be taken up or ignored. And like Owen said, nama and rupa can be bolied further down to just "phenomena". There really is no "self" contracting. That, too, is illusory and can be seen to just be nama and rupa being misread.

Disclaimer: Just my 2 cents. My opinion is subject to change at the drop of a hat.

Wow! Really fantastic descriptions and pointers Owen and Nick! How would you guys describe the 2nd skandha, feeling, in the abeyance of self-contraction?

Nick: "By seeing, in real time, the interaction of mind and body, one does not identify an illusory sense of "being" or "self" with any pleasant, unpleasant or neutral phenomena. And thus no stress arises as a result even though those phenomena still arise" Are you differentiating between pleasent/unpleasent/neutral and attached/averse/indifferent here? Would you characterize the latter as built from a mixture of 2nd skandha and other factors, and constituting "stress", while the former pertain to 2nd skandha only?

I have noticed over the course of practice different "kinds" of equanimity, one being clearly related to a sort of balance of the 2nd skandha in which (seemingly) neutral feelings predominate, another being deeper in that it can (seemingly) be fully manifest even simultaneously with strong attachment and aversion, although in this case the latter are seen as adventitious attentional distortions rather than a "solid self". In fact, it seems almost as if "solid self" is only an assumption which is *enacted* as attraction, aversion and indifference but that the 2nd skandha can function in a very different way when not in reference to such a fiction. Any feedback?
-jake