Owen's Practice Journal, Part II

Those are approximately the things I'm asking about; I think there's some extra personality idiosyncrasy or something involved in how I look at this.

Richard talks about a "magical fairytale-like" experience of existing in the world. If I put away my idiosyncratic religious metaphors, this seems about as good a way to sum up what "wonder" means to me (and apparently to the AF troupe) as any. A mode of perception far outside of "normal" experience, imbuing every moment with some kind of ineffable magic (or rather, revealing that it was always thus without 'me'). And this makes sense to both of you concerning your current experience (whether or not you would care to express it that way)?

I certainly don't communicate like Richard nor trent nor tarin. Do I need to? The 'magic faery tale' sounds quite affective to me, so I would not use that term to describe it. What sticks out to me currently, is the amazing stillness and lack of mental tension, lack of push and pull of 'being', which is absent, and this is uninterrupted and blissful in an unaffective way. My default perspective seems to be the 8th jhana's signlessness. If i switch it to the 6th's perspective, then this 'wonder' becomes much more the default. Perhaps the way I approached practice has influenced this. I was never really one to 'groove on the visual' for example. I would stare and stare at the sense of 'being' and see it arise and drop away. That was the majority of what i did. I did not walk around appreciating nature that much.

There's no need to talk like them, I'm just curious about your experience and whether you'd describe it in similar ways if you took on their way of speaking. A good portion of that curiosity is because their kind of description matches my own understanding of where this is leading to for me, and I want to see whether it led there for you.

At first I didn't understand what Richard was going on about re: the fairytale thing (if I imagine it such that 'I' am in a fairytale, that is deeply affective, and hard to see the value of), but there is apparently another way in which it can be so.

If you don't know how to compare your experience to the typical AF stuff, that's fine, maybe that's part of the answer to my question. (EDIT: I have no idea whether "wonder" is the same as 6th jhana appreciation, though that's an interesting idea...you guys would understand that better than me.)

"Those are approximately the things I'm asking about; I think there's some extra personality idiosyncrasy or something involved in how I look at this.

Richard talks about a "magical fairytale-like" experience of existing in the world. If I put away my idiosyncratic religious metaphors, this seems about as good a way to sum up what "wonder" means to me (and apparently to the AF troupe) as any. A mode of perception far outside of "normal" experience, imbuing every moment with some kind of ineffable magic (or rather, revealing that it was always thus without 'me'). And this makes sense to both of you concerning your current experience (whether or not you would care to express it that way)?"

Clayton is hanging out at my apartment this week so we might record a podcast that goes into some detail about this, will try and answer your questions in more detail there. Also might go in for another fmri scan this weekend to see what's going on.

To give you a quick pointer, what's your experience before you add anything to it?

"Clayton is hanging out at my apartment this week so we might record a podcast that goes into some detail about this, will try and answer your questions in more detail there. Also might go in for another fmri scan this weekend to see what's going on."

Thanks, looking forward to it!

"To give you a quick pointer, what's your experience before you add anything to it?"

As best as I can see, without the religious metaphors...fairytale-like.

"Thanks, looking forward to it!

"To give you a quick pointer, what's your experience before you add anything to it?"

As best as I can see, without the religious metaphors...fairytale-like. "

Try and extend the time you can go without giving it a label. It should prove interesting.

Might the difference not be something to do with the distinction Majjhima Nikaya 70 makes between one-liberated-in-both-ways and one-liberated-by-wisdom, where the one-liberated-in-both-ways either has access to the arupa jhanas, or actively used them to end the affluents?
I guess any way you could it, you seem to be one-liberated-in-both-ways, assuming the general mapping is correct.

"
Might the difference not be something to do with the distinction Majjhima Nikaya 70 makes between one-liberated-in-both-ways and one-liberated-by-wisdom, where the one-liberated-in-both-ways either has access to the arupa jhanas, or actively used them to end the affluents?
I guess any way you could it, you seem to be one-liberated-in-both-ways, assuming the general mapping is correct."

No clue. I still have access to the arupa jhanas, but they are present in my walking around experience. I know someone who did the same thing in the zen tradition yet has no idea about jhana.

A few other things I'm noticing.
1. Feeling of intense soreness at the base of the skull. Feels like a torn muscle back there and I'm slightly dizzy.
2. My memory is shot. Having to re-learn how to function.
3. Sleep is mostly like the entrance to NS though I did have some brief dreams last night.
4. No emotions at all. Figured I'd make that clear.
5. Sense of something (ego?) trying to take credit for this, but is instantly self corrected.
6. Sense of a shadow-self trying to attach to experience but it can't. Seems to be burning out in a fairly dark night kinda way.
7. Longer and longer periods getting absorbed in the stilness.
8. Some burning and buzzing around the hara. No feeling tones though.
9. Having fun watching all the conditioned reactions i've inadvertently cultivated over the years fall flat without a sense of being or self to worry about.
10. No sense of an internal "space".
11. No sense of time.
12. Visual senses seem to be getting more acute. I'm noticing my glasses all the time now, where before I tuned them out.
13. I have no choice other than to react without premeditation.
14. Sense of "oh, I appear to be doing something", the idea of owning volition went away. I'm constantly surprised as to what I'm going to do next.

@Owen & Nick - thank you very much for summarizing the path to 'no-self' in such a concise and practical manner.

"I'm constantly surprised as to what I'm going to do next.
"

LOL

This is fascinating stuff. It's easy to see how exposure to entheogens has gotten many started down this path. But when you speak of shot memory, no sense of time, reacting without premeditation, etc. it's hard not to think of the practical implications, for example from a livelihood perspective. I suppose it's too soon to draw any conclusions...

Well, I was so immersed in a recent class I was teaching, with no sense of time I looked at the my watch suddenly and saw I'd run out of it. Had to let the kids go without teaching them all i had to. But apart from not being aware of time passing, I don't think it is much a problem. The memory is sort of weird. i don't have mental images in the mind's eye, at least not full ones arising. They are undecipherable wisps of movement in the brain which don't really take the form of full images. I can't remember things via images it seems but there is still a recognition of what is being recalled. I had a bit of a short phase of foggy memory right after the shift, trying to remember how an emotion 'felt'. Actually, I can't really recall that now as I can't generate any affective feeling whatsoever. I think I'll need time to talk about this in detail as some things just don't occur to me to share nor remember. I'm too in the moment to consider stuff most of the time (figure of speech).

Kenneth says he still knows his emotions by what he calls their "flavor." Any idea what he's referring to?

Thanks for this kind of detail, Nick and Owen. I may only be speaking for myself, but it's hugely informative to hear some glimpses of daily life (such as the experience of teaching a class) from this standpoint.

Most of the discussion on this forum is about phenomena and terminology, and sometimes it makes me want to throw my cushion in the closet and stop meditating, before "I", along with friends, marriage, and job, vanish into a solipsistic cloud of vaguely-defined adjectives. Mostly I attribute this to the limitations of internet forums as a method of communication. But I do appreciate the fact that you've opened the window on "real life" a bit (there is such a thing, isn't there, even if it's not "yours" ? ).

"
Kenneth says he still knows his emotions by what he calls their "flavor." Any idea what he's referring to?

"

Yeah, that's what it was like before the shift. No mind states, but thoughts would "echo" in the body but not get followed further than that. There was still a self that was seen as an owner of something. When that goes, so does the flavor. Emotions require duality to function, or at least to create bodily affect. Without the tension of me/other, emotions can't get a grip anywhere so they don't come up.

Congrats guys.
Thanks for sharing!
This is very encouraging stuff.
Two questions that come to mind are:
Nick mentions a deepening thats occuring, how is it deepening?
I wonder how watching a very well-made sad/romantic film be for you guys, since it is a very intense affective experience, and part of what make very good films.

Hi Yadid,

I think I have seen glimpses of where this may head. I have had it happen a few times suddenly out of the blue. One time I was waiting for a bus, and I looked up at the towering apartment blocks in front of the road. They just appeared so majestic. Behind them the even taller Andes mountains rose up like gods, covered in white. All of a sudden it just really seemed like the universe experiencing itself. There is no sense of 'me' nor sense of 'being' yet there isn't a continuous experience of the 'universe experiencing itself.' Don't make me explain it further as I wouldn't know how. But over the past month, the habits that seemed to continue even without affect, and the shadowy ecco like effects of a broken sense of 'being' have diminished, and stillness has become more pronounced. I see it getting better in subtle ways every day that passes. Like the residual inertia of past tendencies are burning up slowly and revealing what lies behind their broken arses. The universe experiencing itself.

Here is a quote from Vineeto talking about something similar:

SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Post extinction of identity, how does one operate. Is there a complete break away from the pre-event order of things or does something still linger from the past?

VINEETO: Some things are very simple because the flesh-and-blood body knows how to do most things such as getting up in the morning, taking a bath/swim, making breakfast, answering the phone, typing words, reading and so on. The difference is that doing these things now is a play and a delight and no emotional interference ever occurs.
A lot of things are of course new and I am still finding out. As I said before, I only had a few interactions with identities, and living with two actually free men is an ongoing delight. Some remnant hangovers of my old identity, such as habitual patterns have already come up and are now in process of vanishing/ have vanished and I am sure some will still occur. However, with no emotional ties to impede the operation of a bare awareness/apperception, this is a fairly quick and easy task.

Continued below..

SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Does universe is infinite a certainty now? And can you explain about how do you know it with so much certainty.

VINEETO: It has been a certainty for me for a long time, intellectually understood at first, that there can't be a '˜something' let alone a '˜nothing' beyond the imagined borders of the universe and any such ideas were experientially confirmed in my PCEs as being nothing other than human imagination in operation. However, about a week ago, I clearly experienced this consciousness being without limits and the vast stillness of the infinite universe became fully apparent. I then experienced it as a fact that I am this infinite universe experiencing itself as a flesh-and-blood conscious human being. This experience occurred again today but is not yet an ongoing moment-to-moment experience. Richard reported that it took him several years to realize the full depth and purity of an actual freedom.
It's still early days. actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/19.htm#24Jan10 END OF QUOTE

This is so cool. And the fact you guys are actually able to utter coherent and insightful sentences - very very helpful. I don't think I'd be able to talk at all. One thing - I was away (goenka course) and must have missed something - Nick did you become AF? I'm assuming so, it certainly sounds that way, just haven't heard. And very cool the connections you guys are making between 10 fetters arahant and AF. The AF/insight rift has seemed so foolish and unnecessary. Am very grateful you both are sharing...

"I think I have seen glimpses of where this may head. I have had it happen a few times suddenly out of the blue. One time I was waiting for a bus, and I looked up at the towering apartment blocks in front of the road. They just appeared so majestic. Behind them the even taller Andes mountains rose up like gods, covered in white. All of a sudden it just really seemed like the universe experiencing itself."

This is perhaps *exactly* what I mean by wonder / ecstasy.

Thank you for sharing.

EDIT: Is this something you ever experienced before the shift you've described, or is it entirely new?

No, not that I can remember. It's new. This (the universe experiencing itself) was infinitely more wondrous than anything I can recall even in past PCEs..

I'm pretty sure this is what I'm talking about. Something that makes every other mode of perception seem like a mockery of, a distortion of, a blight on what is truly worthwhile...yes?

Hehe, you must have thought all my ramblings about this wonderful thing that I thought was at the end of the path (as on my practice thread, and wherever else) were just me being nuts.

thanks for documenting this!