Laurel III

Thanks to both of you. It feels very much like lucid dreaming. What happens is I'll get a bit lost for a moment, thinking whatever is manifesting is real, and then kind of jolt back into the witness, feeling rather foolish. It's not unpleasant in itself; what's been unpleasant is thinking it's not what I "should" be doing. So I'll ride it out. The bit about preparing for sleep (because of the unaccustomed relaxation) sounds pretty credible as well.

Have a look at this - he's talking about using the breath as an object, but you are using the witness - however, I think it still might be useful

Ya know, it's okay to just go with the flow for a while. It's really hard to have a meditation practice that is all about "should." When our practice is all "should" then we can miss the things mind is trying to show us, like lucid dreams, or jhanas, or any number of things (how about non-dual awareness!) that are not necessarily side tracks but actually critical to some area of development.

Yeah, I agree with Chris. Sometimes certain practices can feel forced. When it doesn't feel natural, it can lead to a lot of frustration and even some nice headaches. Go with what feels natural. I actually didn't use the witness a whole lot. I also didn't use the breath. I used to pressure/vibrating of the 3rd eye as a concentration object. It just felt right.

You know me, have to do everything "right." That's my obsessive personality. But I will make a note of it (ha!) and move on. My biggest problem with the current situation is having had it drilled into me that torpor is a no-no. Oh, and there's also the fact that I was expecting something other than what I got. That's always good for some confusion! But I'll carry on. Have a daylong tomorrow; we'll see what that brings. There'll be a lot more opportunity to allow something to develop than in just a session or two during the day at home.

"Oh, and there's also the fact that I was expecting something other than what I got. That's always good for some confusion!"

This is a common theme - not getting what you expect, and then letting that cause some kind of crisis or a jump back into "should" practice. I say (again), once you reach the place you're in Laurel, that you should go with what you get and see where it takes you. I know someone else who gets confused and conflicted when their practice does not match their expectations. I've spent months trying to help that person see that it just doesn't matter, that we get what we get, and whatever we get is what we should celebrate.

If you think about it how on earth could it ever be possible that everyone have identical experiences? Think of our vast variation in upbringing, life experience, education, religion, and imagination. We are all unique and thus we get unique experiences when we practice. Some are lucky and their paths follow a map, or maybe they interpret their path as following a map. Or maybe the map leads them to certain experiences.

Who knows?

Okay, back from my daylong. I did the witness practice again (I sometimes screw up and want to talk about "witness protection," but whatever), and got in very deep, and had some more lucid dreams. So in the group meeting I asked the teacher about it. He said they are indeed lucid dreams, not torpor. In the case of lucid dreams the mind is not dull but full of energy, and so it gets busy and creates adventures for us. I think this is what happened on retreat last summer when I vividly relived a portion of my childhood following a particularly deep jhana session. The most important thing the teacher said, though, is not to pay a lot of attention to them, but to bring the mind back to the meditation object (in this case, the witness). It's tempting to get sidetracked and want to watch the show, or even think there are deep insights in the show (I remember last summer thinking, this is seductive; I could spend all day being 4 again). The real deal is the practice. These are a sideshow.

I think my questions about not knowing whether I was going up and down on the jhanic arc have to do with the fact that my mind isn't used to being this concentrated, so I've been getting waylaid by these lucid dreams. I'm amazed that with this focus on the witness I get much, much deeper than I did just using the breath. When it's over I feel wonderful. Walking meditation was beautiful after one of these sits, although the effect wore off by the end of a half hour of it. But there was only the most muted kind of chatter and no restlessness for quite awhile.

So my strategy will be not to freak out when it happens, or to think I'm having sleepiness, but at the same time gently return my attention to the object. I may even try focusing on jhana factors, like pleasure, to keep the mind more engaged and get into 1st and subsequent jhanas. The teacher suggested asking, "how can I increase the pleasure of this experience of a quiet mind?" That's a way of deflecting the mind's energy.

Nothing new to report; same pattern. I am experiencing a resistance to practice, having trouble completing a half hour. Need to work more closely with resolves. Have also been rereading MCTB; good refresher.

Okay, I seem to have moved out of the dukkhas into equanimity. The energy shifted yesterday afternoon. This morning's sit was effortless and blissful, once I got settled. Got the heartbeat sound in the background and the gentle vibratory quality. Feel as if everything is fine. I located the witness, and everything unfolded all on its own, from 1 to 8 and back again. I had a couple minutes of easy noting, and then I started up again, but then the timer went off. I was probably moving into 2nd jhana at the time. I settled a bit before breaking away. There were a few dreams that started up towards the end, but otherwise the mind was focused.

It's at this point impossible for me not to want to cling to this state just a little. After enduring several days of grinding anxiety, feeling blue, and feeling disgust about this life and its emptiness, I am now fine with it.

What is the difference between this equanimity state than the state you were in yesterday?

It's the same, as far as I can tell; yesterday is when the shift happened. I remember saying the same thing to you then that I just wrote on my thread: it's hard not to want this to last. I didn't sit last evening. Yesterday morning, when I was still feeling miserable, I actually bailed on a sit 5 minutes before the end (I know, I shouldn't do that). Anyway, I've been curious about how these cycles manifest in 3rd path. I guess I'm getting clearer about it now.

Did you do anything to make the equanimous state happen? Can you do anything to make it last?

Well, I can keep practicing. That does seem to have some bearing on the matter.

Speaking of which, I did some good old fashioned vipassana today, first noting and then open awareness. The noting was reasonably straightforward, but then I began to feel myself heading into dreamland. All of a sudden that cleared up and I was experiencing fine vibrations and a sense that the universe was vibrating with me. Worked especially at watching the beginnings and ends of phenomena, including thoughts. Tried to catch each thought as it emerged. What happened was I wouldn't catch the thought until it was already underway, but by the time I noticed it it just stopped. I thought of Kenneth comparing the mind to a cat watching at a mousehole--funny!

Also tried to stay mindful throughout the day as much as possible. Some agitation came back, worked on breathing to calm myself. I'm once again on some steroid medication for my asthma, but it isn't bothering me as much in this particular formula as it did last time. I do see myself acting and feeling in ways that are shaped by the medicine, though. I'm glad it hasn't derailed my practice.

More of the same. Stayed more awake and aware during the dreams, not so much of that this time. Seemed to progress through a period of some itchiness and aches to dream stuff which suddenly dropped off the edge of a cliff into the fine vibratory stuff. Watched thoughts and sensations more carefully this time, trying harder to stay on top of things. Noting at the outset, but more active awareness when sensations came on thick and fast. Not just a relaxed sitting back and letting the show unfold so much as keeping an active awareness of as much as possible, even without time to name it. Very relaxed at the end of the 40 minutes.

45 mins. insight practice, some noting, some just sitting. Began with some strong physical sensations, hunger, a stabbing pain, some tingling and itches. Then there was a shift to a mellower state. This was strangely vague, lots of drift in and out. I'd have to keep reminding myself to notice things, then drift again. The mind wanted to be active in some way, kept trying to construct thought loops or conversations. Then vibrations would set in and everything would be fine, and then my mind would drift again. I wasn't forceful about any of it, but I tried to keep track. Began to note restlessness, but it was so mellow that it hardly qualified. Eventually the timer went off.

45 mins. this morning, beginning with jhanic arc practice, then switching to insight. I focused on the witness and felt myself shift from one jhana to the next, but I kept spacing out during the ride, then coming to again and wondering where I was, then spacing out again. I probably got to 7. When I got back to access I switched to insight practice (didn't have the energy to go back up again), and had to deal with yet more spaciness, until all of a sudden there was a shift and I was in a state I recognize as high eq, with solid vibrations that seemed to encompass all reality. I had a thought: that I could confuse this for a jhana, then remembered that high eq is a jhana-like state, but also recognized that this wasn't quite like any jhana I have experienced.

Then I felt the whole thing start to build, the way it did before my two path attainments. I thought maybe I'd end up with a fruition, but didn't quite make it that far. Things subsided a bit and then the timer went off.

I had that same thought about high EQ, that you could think you were there but just be in first jhana.

I am pretty sure it was no first jhana. I got a distinctive experience of that, plus the others up to 5 at least, just now. It was nice. Then I went to sleep, over and over. My head was practically in my lap. I'm not sure whether it was a nap or something else, but I'd say torpor is about the kindest thing to call it.

Donald Rumsfeld once famously said, you go to war with the army you've got. Well, I went to the cushion with the energy I had. This was the result. Who knows whatever other stages, states, or whatever I visited; I wasn't there for it.

I am obviously sleep-deprived these days. Meditation time is nap time. I'm not entirely sure this morning was a nap, though; there were some lucid dreams in there, plus I managed to cycle up to high eq. I felt the buildup again, and something resembling a fruition, but no sense of a cessation preceding it. Maybe I slept through that part. Feeling puzzled. This third path is strange. I will try to spend some quality time over the weekend reading the threads of other yogis.

Your recent experiences with "sleepiness" are extremely similar to what happens for me. Most sessions don't have clarity, but have this strange sort of sleepiness/dreaminess where I lose the thread of any noting. Getting extra sleep doesn't seem to help.

I used to think that my concentration was weak, but I'm not convinced it helps that much to ramp up my concentration. Working on concentration (watching my breath) does seem to increase the amount of general body sensations (buzzing, tinglings, pleasant body rushes, vertigo, bliss, etc...) during a session, but doesn't provide more clarity.

I don't associate my dreaminess with lucid dreaming, because I'm not sure I've ever had a lucid dream. "Lucid" seems to imply to me some clarity that I never really get.

Occasionally, I'll get sessions where its more clear that I'm traversing the jhanic arc, but the vast majority of the time I don't.

I too get a buildup of pleasant, even blissful sensations, but I've associated that with passing through 2nd jhana quickly, either on the way up or down.

With the exception of yours, my experiences of third doesn't seem to match anyone else's I've read. I'd love to hear more about how this goes for you.

I'll keep posting, then, and we'll see how things go. I should point out that what I was experiencing yesterday, on reflection, were not really lucid dreams. I get those when I do jhana practice. These were the garden-variety hypnogogic stuff. Had some of that today in fact, but didn't actually nod off. I'd let something play itself out, then found when I wanted to I could just say "poof!" and the image would disappear. Sometimes someone would be talking to me and I'd snuff it mid-sentence.

What happened overall is that I found myself passing through a brief A&P, then some sort of turbulence, then the vibrations. When the vibrations hit they were unmistakable. They tended to vary in intensity. For awhile they'd start to build up to something, then they'd level off, then they'd build up again, or calm down a bit. For awhile there were bliss waves. Through the whole process there'd be these dreamlike experiences. After awhile the whole thing got boring. When the timer went off, though, I found myself feeling surprised.

I've had the exact same pattern in equanimity in my first two paths, for the record. This pattern seemed to last for a long, long time. I don't know what to expect in this case, but I'll keep on practicing and see.

Tonight did the witness/jhanic arc practice. Got into 5, moved up to 6, then 7. Sat there for a few and then let go, was really in no place at all, then felt myself open up into joy. Sat with that. Don't know what it was. Eventually passed back down again, got settled and tried some vipassana. Too mellow to note. Some of the same pattern as I've been having recently, dreams of sinking into bubbles, dreams of strings of colorful Christmas ornaments (finally got around to trimming the tree yesterday), then just mellow, no real vibrations to speak of. Active visual field, something resembling t.v. snow but more sparkly. Very mellow, boring in fact. Stopped early. I was getting curious and wanting to post.

Tried jhanic arc practice again. Things began well, made it up through the jhanas one by one, but somewhere around 5 the torpor set in. Leigh Brasington last summer said what that means is my energy is not adequate for the level of concentration I am achieving. That certainly describes this morning. I finally got lost somewhere around 7, tried coming back down, but just hung out God knows where (might have made it back to 4, who knows). Sat with eyes open for awhile. Couldn't get a read on anything, but felt equanimous. No piti or sukkha. But I couldn't really move anywhere either. So eventually just ended about 5 minutes early. I'm having trouble staying with this. Will have to keep practicing.

Cycling again. Had an experience of fear for awhile yesterday, then couldn't shake melancholy. Had a very restless night. Now for no reason at all I'm fine. Go figure. I'll have to do some more vipassana practice and see what gives.