Laurel III

Onward and upward. I got back from a 2-week retreat with Leigh Brasington last Friday. It was a deeply transformative time. We learned the jhanas, and did one-hour sessions all day long. Whatever problem I had maintaining a session longer than 20 minutes before leaving on retreat, I managed to get over it. I now am in the habit of working my way through the jhanas and then back again to access before undertaking insight. I feel that I'm going deeper as a result.

After listening to Leigh for two weeks, I'm all the more bewildered about the overwhelming variety of beliefs and approaches out there. Questions came up about what constitutes jhana, path, and even good insight practice. His methods for insight are far different from what I'm used to, although he did not denigrate noting or the kind of choiceless awareness practice that I have been doing lately. He offered the Five Daily Contemplations ("This body cannot escape aging, illness, death; everything I cherish will someday alter or pass on; I inherit my karma"), focusing on the four elements or the four foundations of mindfulness, and other practices. He also gave an extended presentation of Dependent Origination that was highly illuminating.

So I'm back in the saddle. I'll keep everyone posted. It will take awhile to assimilate the effects of the retreat.

EDIT: My first thread is at kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/45.../Laurel%27s+practice and the post that refers to stream entry is 440

My second thread is kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/48...urel%27s+Practice+II and 2nd path is at post 218.

Welcome back Laurel!

Glad you had a good time with Leigh.

Sounds like fun lLaurel, would love to read more about the retreat when you get the chance to write more.
I think Leigh studied extensively with Ayya Khema, who I really like, she has some awesome YouTube clips:

Welcome back Laurel! Can't wait to hear more about your practice.

Sounds great! I too would love to hear more. I've been practicing jhana the last couple months and still struggle a lot.

Good to see you back, Laurel.

Welcome back Laurel. i was thinking of you to day wondering how the retreat with Leigh was going. Sounds like you had a good time. And yes there are many views out there on practice. I think Leigh's is ver un dogmatic though, I truly enjoyed my retreat with him and sounds like you learned the jhanas so I bet it was well worth it for you too.

PS i had a hard time with repeating those phrases/recollections, didn't do it at all actually. But what's good with Leigh is that you can do your own practice, like noting. He doesn't try to push you his way.

Thanks, everyone; Erik, I said hello for you, and Leigh had lots of highly complimentary things to say about you.

I thought I'd expand a bit on my comment about diverse views. The focus of the retreat was jhana. Leigh clarified that there is a distinction between the approach to jhana in the suttas, which he teaches, and in the commentaries, which Pa Auk Sayadaw and his students teach (Leigh had a 4-month retreat with the Sayadaw last summer). This cleared up a lot for me. However, apparently not too many people have preserved the approach he teaches; he said Ayya Khema had to learn the sutta jhanas on her own, and that she passed them on to him.

His approach to jhana is more rigorous than what people on KFD generally do. He tends to think that it's almost impossible to get jhana outside of a dedicated retreat setting, for example, and that once people return to daily life they are likely to lose the ability to enter jhana over time unless they work on it at least twice a day; even then they need a twice-yearly retreat as a refresher. I found the experience of jhana to be familiar, so I must have entered it last year, but I am sure I haven't gotten to the state I accessed on retreat for a long time. His students are instructed to spend considerably more time in access concentration than I'd been doing. On the whole, I found it pretty easy to follow his instructions, although there were times when I would be distracted, and then once the distraction died down I'd have trouble staying awake. He said that indicated that my energy level wasn't quite up to my concentration, so I had to work at pumping it up.

He also believes that spending time in jhana prior to insight practice leads to deeper insights. In my case, I had to get used to switching to insight practice as I was coming out of the concentration states, but I began to get used to it. There were a couple of insight sessions that seemed far more concrete than anything I've experienced before; for example, a replay of scenes from my early life that was almost like a movie. But I've settled down into the pattern of gentle vibrations that I'd been experiencing before the retreat. He did not teach the Progress of Insight map, although he referred to it. I get the impression that his approach to the map is considerably different from what we do here. He also adheres to the fetter model of the stages of enlightenment; he explicitly said that following the progress of insight up to a cessation is not a basis for a judgment of having attained a new path.

There's also the usual reticence about claiming attainments. I personally can understand both sides of this one. The problem with secrecy is that people don't understand what's going on, but on the other hand being more public can cause people to build a new identity around a path attainment. I know this has tended to happen in my case. But he also praised our site as an example of "noble friends and noble conversation." So as Erik says, he may disagree with some of the things we do here, but he is not dogmatic about it.

One last comment about myself: I tend to want to find an authority figure I can believe without reservation and adhere to that person, as if I were a child looking for a parent. This sounds rather silly for an adult, yet it reflects a basic desire for something solid to hold on to for the sake of security. I am reconciling myself to the fact that I am going to have to come to my own conclusions, although I can't do it in a void--I still need plenty of guidance. But there is no spiritual tradition or practice in all this world that is going to be right for everyone.

I also have lost my illusions about retreats as glamorous opportunities for experiences of deep tranquility and places to get in touch with ultimate reality. They are actually hard work, and can be misused as an escape from real life (as can spiritual practice in general). I used to dream about going to the IMS 3-month retreat as my heart's desire, but by the end of the two weeks at Cloud Mountain there was nothing I desired so much as to see my family again. Part of the reason may have been my ego-identity rebelling against the level of insight I was experiencing, but part of it was discovering how much I cherish and value those I love, instead of being tempted to see them as standing ever-so-slightly in the way of my realization. There's nothing wrong with that.

Laurel, it's so moving to see your overall change in tone as your practice deepens. I'm very happy you've moved into this new territory and are learning so much and engaging with your practice at a more subtle level. The seeking authority figure thing has been a recurring meme in my own practice. Seeing the underlying motive is priceless. Cheers, Ona

"Laurel, it's so moving to see your overall change in tone as your practice deepens."

Seconded. Impressive. I'm happy to see what a valuable experience it was for you.

Laurel, nice to have you back. Glad things are going well. I can feel a difference in you from reading your comments.

You posted a comment from Leigh Brasington:

"He tends to think that it's almost impossible to get jhana outside of a dedicated retreat setting, for example, and that once people return to daily life they are likely to lose the ability to enter jhana over time unless they work on it at least twice a day; even then they need a twice-yearly retreat as a refresher."

This is not my experience but this is definitely an interesting topic, this jhana stuff. As I experienced them I certainly didn't need to work at getting into them. They came on all by themselves and I would actually walk around in light jhana territory a lot at time during second & third path. I'm not sure how it is that there are so many different version of jhanas, but so be it.

"This is not my experience but this is definitely an interesting topic, this jhana stuff. As I experienced them I certainly didn't need to work at getting into them. They came on all by themselves and I would actually walk around in light jhana territory a lot at time during second & third path. I'm not sure how it is that there are so many different version of jhanas, but so be it."

I was thinking about this this morning after trying for 25 mins to get into first jhana, failing, and finally just switching to noting. Does it just come more easily (a lot more easily) to some people? Not to turn this into apperception's practice thread, but I've been plugging away at jhana for two months now, and I would not say I'm much better at it than when I first started. By contrast, I managed to get stream-entry in two months just by noting. I have a strong, strong preference for insight practices over jhana. It occurred to me - after reading what Laurel said - that hey, maybe I don't suck at jhana. Maybe I just need to be on day 5 of a retreat to really get them.

Anyway, you're right, this is an interesting subject. And I'm thinking again back to Daniel's talk about D&D-style character sheets for meditators. Maybe jhana just comes more naturally to some people than others.

For me jhana access seemed to be developmental. Maybe it's developmental and personality or something like that. I really don't know.

I don't know either. What helped on this particular retreat is that I'd do an hour's worth of practice, then do half an hour of mindful walking meditation, then go back for another hour, and during that second hour I'd be so well concentrated from the get-go that I'd start moving into jhana very easily. I'd do this over and over again for days. Eventually the arupa jhanas became easily accessible.

Leigh also told us that some people on his retreats do not get into jhana at all, especially on their first retreat. I asked Leigh about this and he said there were two main reasons. One is that for some people, getting into access concentration brings up all their "stuff," and they end up needing to deal with it. The retreat can actually be a powerful opportunity for doing that, and they go home (rightfully) feeling that they made excellent progress. The other thing he said is that aversion types often find it tough to generate enough of the pleasant sensation to bring up piti energy that is well balanced with sukkha. I myself, being an aversive type, frequently find it hard to locate a pleasant feeling and then fan those embers into first jhana. Such people may be better off doing some serious metta practice to generate positive vibes that offset their aversive tendencies. I worked on metta while I was there as well.

Before this retreat, I found noting to be the single most effective way of settling my mind. If I tried focusing on the breath I'd wander all over. I am glad I did the retreat because it's given me a new set of tools. Obviously, jhana is not necessary for stream entry, but I think it makes our journey much more pleasant, and brings good balance to our insight practice.

Chris, your comment that you're able to get into light jhana territory during the day is another point of contention; someone at the retreat asked Leigh if this were possible (say, being in jhana while doing the dishes) and he said no. I think he has very specific qualities in mind by which he determines what is jhana and what is not. Still, I personally have felt piti energy just sitting still, and have felt myself go into concentration states doing things like waiting at the doctor's office. That's less active than doing dishes, but maybe Leigh would allow that what we're doing is getting into jhana-like territory, or experiencing a mild form of some of the jhana factors.

His reading of these things is rooted in his interpretation of the suttas. Part of the retreat involved detailed instruction on the suttas, in fact, which for him are the gold standard, although obviously they're open to interpretation, and there is in addition the commentary literature, which he by no means discounts. I think we in the pragmatic dharma community are less thoroughly rooted in the ancient texts, although we respect them.

Jim, I would encourage you to try working on the jhanas in a dedicated retreat. Leigh's webpage might also be a good resource for you: www.leighb.com/ . It's got lots of good resources, some of which came up at the retreat. He says he's planning on writing a book, and I hope he follows up.

"One is that for some people, getting into access concentration brings up all their "stuff," and they end up needing to deal with it. "

What is the difference between Access Concentration and the first Jhana for Leigh? Are just the Jhana Factors stronger? Leigh "allows" thoughts to come up even during jhana, right?
thanks for the retreat report btw

We begin by focusing on the breath at the nostrils, and as thoughts come up, we briefly label them and dismiss them gently. At a certain point, there's a feeling of a shift taking place, and thoughts become "wispy." By wispy, I mean there's no lengthy discourse involved; there'll be a note here and there ("Hm, I think I'm getting it," or something like that), and maybe a fragment of a tune. But the breath will become shallower, the wispy thoughts will not be persistent in any way, and there'll usually be a brightening in the visual field. It's not the most stable state, so one could easily get distracted and fall back out of it, but I can testify that it does feel different from the default mode.

First jhana might arise by itself, but usually it needs some assistance. After spending some time in access (which Leigh recommends doing; he says it deepens one's jhana absorption to have been in access longer to start with), focus on a pleasant sensation. He favors smiling and letting the pleasure of the smile be the focus; what worked for me was a glow of happiness in the heart center. As you focus on it, there's a reinforcing feedback loop that intensifies the pleasant feeling. Eventualy piti energy will arise, in the form of tingling, or possible heat or a feeling of warmth suffusing the body. Piti without this pleasure, on the other hand, is like sticking one's finger into an electrical outlet (I've felt that; the itches on the skin are an unpleasant manifestation of piti). This combination of piti and sukkha are first jhana.

Great stuff Laurel. Tell me about your experiences with the arupa jhanas. Was this your first time experiencing them?

Sometimes it might be difficult to say just when one is "in" jhana, because there are more or less intense experiences of it. I initially got whacked with such an extreme wave of piti that I was bent over in tears; Leigh said this sometimes happens the first time, but it isn't that intense subsequently. You can fan it up a bit by continuing to focus on the pleasant feeling, but according to Leigh the real point of first jhana is to build up enough piti to propel yourself into second. Getting from first into second involves taking a deep breath, and feeling as if you're stepping downward. You feel pleasure and some of the piti energy, but the main experience is a sense of focus; for me, it was about six inches beyond the nose.

Thoughts came and went throughout most of the jhanas for me; usually they were labeling thoughts, or noticing what was going on and commenting on it ("this feels like a warm glow," "this feels like I'm settling"). Once in awhile other random thoughts would flicker in and out. If I was at a shallow level of absorption these might be more pronounced. Also, it's possible to lose energy and get sleepy, especially in 4th jhana. I found it was helpful to do some physical activity beforehand to get my energy level up; sitting down to jhana right from a nap is not the best way to start. Caffeine can also help.

I'm sure Leigh Brasingtion and I have different definitions that apply to the jhana experience, probably related to the depth of the experience more than anything else. That said, what you are describing, Laurel, sounds very familiar. I can tell you that every jhana has it's own unique feel/flavor/color/sensation and because of that it is pretty clear to me when in them exactly which one I'm in. Every jhana has a unique "handle" that is generally driven by the breath and which I can use to transition between jhanas. From inside jhana A find the jhana B handle, grab onto that with the breath and transition into jhana B. That's my experience, anyway. And yes, I generally have thoughts throughout, so I'm not going all that deep unless I REALLY stick with it and continue puling on the handle, in which case I can get very, very blissed out and concentrated and lose most of my contact with sensory experience.

"
And yes, I generally have thoughts throughout, so I'm not going all that deep unless I REALLY stick with it and continue puling on the handle, in which case I can get very, very blissed out and concentrated and lose most of my contact with sensory experience.

"

I am not as experienced, but this is my experience as well except in 8th jhana. Hard to form thoughts there. and PL1 has so much piti for me that its hard to do much other than bliss out.

Russell, I never expected to get into the arupa jhanas on this retreat, but after I'd gotten good at going from one to four and back again, I thought I'd give it a try. Leigh said to stay in fourth for awhile, and then to focus on getting a sense of one's boundaries. The next step is to visualize pushing them outward, to fill the room, then further, and then still further. It was a bit like blowing up a balloon. So I did this, and suddenly the thing took off all on its own, and I felt suspended in space. There seemed to be a chill in the air, which I was later told is typical. Next I tried expanding consciousness into that space, and felt it fill up the emptiness. Next I collapsed it all down into nothing. There was still a witness there at that point, but the overall sense was of a blankness, no space around me, no thinking and feeling filling unlimited space, just deep blackness. It wasn't unpleasant; it was on the contrary relaxing. I went for 8th, which was beyond perception, by simply taking the step of suspending the judgment of "no-thing-ness" that characterized seven. Strangely enough, I briefly touched down in that no-man's land.

While it's hard to describe, I can say that each state had its own distinct feel to it, and I knew when I was "there." There still was a bit of reflection as I kept going through them, mostly acknowledging what I was experiencing. To get out I just would focus on recovering the previous state and it would come back, then do it again, until I was eventually at access again.

The main thing I can say is that it took a lot of energy. Since I've been back I've made it back to 5 once, but I haven't tried to go beyond yet. Towards the end of the retreat I began to feel a bit of burnout. I'm not sure why this happened to me in particular, or whether it's common, but by the end I just wanted to go back to daily life and chill for awhile.

This is all great info, Laurel. Thank you for sharing.