Practical Hua-Tou

We do vary in sensitivity, and even if we empathize with others, sometimes it triggers weird crap in us, so we end up getting angry when someone else is sad, for example, or gleeful when someone else gets hurt. I suspect there's the built in empathy system (eta: see mirror neurons in above link!!!), and then there's a lot of learning that gets layered on top (cultural norms, family patterns, personal experiences).

"We are wired to pick up on the moods of the people around us, even "fake" people in a movie." - ona
Def. But I think some people may be more sensitive to the moods of others.
I have a very similar tendency when at parties or around crowds. I usually test pretty high on introversion.


-sunyata

As someone with a certain amount of experience, seeing the practice trajectory unreel in myself and others-- I can confirm that 'heightened sensitivity' IS a frequent report; this seems to be true regardless of 'where' on some psychometric scale one was, before. What that 'means', what to 'do'-- I think that's up to the practitioner's further study.

As to 'personality'-- that's a tangle. I'd always thought that word was pop-psychology-speak for what is indicated by 'self' in the Asian practice traditions. So it surprises me to hear that folks interested in 'no-self' would be concerned about 'losing' their personality. Perhaps there are nuances I don't imagine.

People interested in practice might not be interested in no-self. People come to practice for many different reasons. I can understand how someone who looks to practice for health benefits might be unnerved by claims of changes in personality.

It seems there is a unique personality through which emptiness expresses itself. That personality is not erased by practice but is gradually enabled to shine forth, unencumbered. At least, IMO.

People interested in practice might not be interested in no-self. People come to practice for many different reasons. I can understand how someone who looks to practice for health benefits might be unnerved by claims of changes in personality.


-sunyata

Which was part of Chris's point about not using that vocabulary.

Though I am also put in mind of Trungpa's quote (I think it was him): Better not to start; if you start, better to finish.

Though some people can manage to maintain a "stress reduction" level of meditation practice for long periods, many find themselves unintentionally setting off the process of insight. I don't think that can be controlled - it just depends on the accident of that person's individuality. Some people start opening up whether they want to or not, others don't unless they really intend to. Thus Trungpa's quote.

The backdoor is still an entryway, even though it might turn out to be painful.

I certainly agree. I was thinking that the fruits of practice may surprise someone who picked it up as a means to better health. I was also thinking that someone who begins practicing to bolster his/her health might become interested in other "outcomes" related to practice.

But part of being able to make those judgement calls about how to guide someone is having had the experience yourself. People get themselves into godawful messes with all kinds of practices because someone said "oh, you should try this" or they saw some instructions on the web or in a video and thought it would be fun to play with or they went to a couple of workshops and start trying on their own. At least in the latter case they can contact the instructor of the workshop for further support. But many people just ask around, without determining if the person they are asking knows what they are doing. If they are lucky they get a real answer from someone with training and experience. If they are unlucky, they get half-baked or downright insane answers from whoever happens to be hearing the question, who may have no idea what they are talking about or may have had a bad experience and speaks from that with no understanding of what went wrong and why. There's a lot of wreckage out there in many traditions.

(In fact, even outside of dharma practice: how many people read a little about horse training or take a few classes, buy a cute baby horse, make a mess of things, and end up with a dangerous and unmanageable pain in the ass animal that needs professional retraining to be safe around. I worked with my horse trainer for four years, and watched her "fix" a long string of animals that had gone through exactly this scenario.)

Strange-- I'd let my own experience and thoughts on these matters lapse out of memory. Now I'm remembering what disturbed me so much about all the fascination with 'Actual Freedom' [and all its plausibly deniably re-named variants]. And what sent me fleeing to more traditional teachings after my first brush with the 'new, modern, fast, effective, accessible' sort. It was my growing understanding of what 'lineage' and the institutions that had formed around serious practice-- were intended to do, and why they are necessary.

Meditation opens the door to a science of subjectivity; one of the ways we come to understand subjectivity is that we essentially take it apart. During the deconstruction phase, if I don't have expert help-- I am not what I was and have no idea what I may be; a state of total confusion requires support, and a backing off of requirements for business as usual.

The short, and dramatic version is-- this degree of disorientation can be extremely disturbing; I saw people flipping out, and their teachers unprepared to help them. It's the current mode to dismiss monastic institutions as archaic expressions of a religiosity that suits almost nobody in the present day-- but what if that degree of structure is what it takes to support people who are taking themselves apart and putting themselves together again?

Kate, I am finding myself in a similar boat, having come to appreciate more and more the tradition of structured teaching that I experienced in various traditions. There's a reason those structured methods developed, and not just because some power hungry priests wanted to keep the "good stuff" secret. Messing around without good guidance can cause some serious wreckage, especially if the student is not well balanced and mature to begin with, but even then.

I think the only challenge is that a person with little knowledge is going to have a hard time judging the awakeness of a teacher or the goodness of a sangha. If they are a balanced and mature person, chances are they will be able to use basic human judgment (ie the people in the sangha seem honest, normal, friendly, etc and are not glazed-eyed dogma reciters who drool at their guru's feet. Likewise a good teacher (for a beginner in particular) would probably at a minimum have a fairly drama-free, plain-spoken and ordinary way of being. I guess to say, based on personal experience, that the more unusual, strange or dysfunctional a teacher or sangha seems to be, the more red flags I see flying. Of course, if the prospective student is themselves not in a stable place, their ability to notice this may be pretty poor.

Just for my own example, I worked briefly with a teacher in another tradition who had about 100 red flags flying, from an inability to maintain relationships (business, personal, romantic, marital) to a tendency to drink too much to a hot temper and big ego. Some of these things I didn't take the time to notice before getting involved in the group; others I ignored for a few months, figuring it wasn't that bad. I was young and carried away by the adventure of doing something new and unfamiliar. After a few months I realized he was the last person I needed to be spending any time around, and walked away.

Of course, that's an extreme case. I also had another teacher who was a geniunely good hearted soul. He knew quite a bit theoretically, but I think I quickly outpaced his personal experience at that time and didn't get any guidance about the emotional upheavals and weirdness that developed as I went into a dark night. I ended up walking away, very depressed and miserable, and it took me a long time (years) to put myself back together and eventually come back to a practice (albeit a different kind). I only understood what happened back then quite recently. At the time I just felt lost and hurt.

(PS I love the way we never stay on topic on our threads!)

I think the potential problem is that some people will have the awakening process triggered by doing mindfulness meditation, without any intention on their part (and some won't). For those that do, what on earth are they going to think when they suddenly start experiencing the arising and passing, dark night, etc.? If they are learning this in a clinic, and describe these things to the instructor/doctor/whoever, is that person going to say "you need to get deeper guidance from a teacher such as (refer them to an awakened teacher)" or be surprised and baffled and think it must be a mental illness? Without good guidance at that stage, the person could well end up in a dark night for a long time, and have it diagnosed as depression or be stuck in the weird position of having to turn to a religious tradition for support, when they didn't even want that (or didn't think they wanted it) in the first place.

Similar things can happen even for people who want to do energy work practices because they think it will make them healthier, stronger or more virile. And then they start waking up the kundalini and things get really strange and uncomfortable and out of their control, and they can freak out and not know what to do.

Perhaps that's the main thing: a transition comes where you realize you aren't in control of what you've kicked off. If you aren't forewarned of that, that loss of control can be very scary and unpleasant. And unfortunately once the process is started, you aren't in control and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Trying to stop it just creates ongoing problems.

Thus the quote, better not to start; once you start, better to finish.