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Practical Hua-Tou

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13 years 6 months ago #6210 by Tom Otvos
Practical Hua-Tou was created by Tom Otvos
From another thread ...


Tomo, I know Stuart pretty well. We've been corresponding off and on over the last few years via email. I gave the hua-tou practice a concerted effort for a while, and he was a dependable and skillful coach.Though it's not my specialty, I am familiar with the practice to some degree. One thing Stuart made clear to me was that the purpose of the hua-tou is to cultivate a strong sense of doubt - that feeling of not knowing. It's not investigation leading to any sort of intellectual conclusion. The mind will conjure up all kinds of solutions to the conundrum, but they are to be left by the wayside. The point is for the doubt to grow and grow, like a snowball rolling down a mountain. It begins to build an immense amount of force, like a freight train speeding toward the edge of a cliff. It can be unsettling. All of the classic dark night symptoms arise. It can get really, realy intense.You don't want to push too hard, so as to short ciruit your mind and leave yourself in a stupor. But you do want the doubt/not-knowing to build and build...... and it's best not to speak about what might happen as a result ;-)Another thing Stuart stressed about this practice was not to engage in it while doing something that demands a lot of attention, such as riding a bike or driving a car. He knows of an individual who was not so careful, and crashed their bike. But, when your safety is more assured, keep the questioning mind active persistently, consistently.Don't try to answer the question. Just build the doubt.Also, I think it's really cool that you're giving this a shot :-)

-awouldbehipster


Stuart has been gracious enough to agree to help me out with this, and so I have started this thread as, not so much a practice journal, but a place to discuss the practical aspects of hua-tou as I stumble along. Please feel free to offer any input.I have been doing this practice for a little over a week now, and my first observation is that it is a very simple practice, but it is far, far (far, far, far) from being easy. As Jackson notes above, one of the key things to try and achieve is doubt, but IMO that is pretty advanced too. My major stumbling block at this point is to simply treat the h-t as a genuine question as opposed to a mantra. Try it. Say a question over and over again, and see how long you can keep that up without it transforming from a genuine question to just words. Not easy.I don't want to reproduce private correspondence here, but Stuart uses the following teaching example:


I have found the example of being interested in the person living in the the next apartment coming home. You hear the door slam and hear footsteps and sounds coming through the wall, but you are not sure exactly what is going on. Was that the closet door or the bedroom door that slammed? That last sound was that package being put on the table or some thing dropped on the floor? As intently as you listen, you are still uncertain of exactly what you are hearing, but you still listen intently and still want to know even more. Try approaching the h-t like this but gently asking, "Who is dragging this body around?" "Who?" "Who?" ....keep it gentle but keep asking.


Right now, that is not working for me but I am still hacking away at it, once or twice a day seated, and as often as I can during the day. What jazzes me about the practice is its potential for doing it during dog walking, which is a good 45m each night that, up until now, has been wasted practice-wise.I will also add (if it is not clear from the above) that the practice is pretty frustrating right now. While I certainly did not expect fireworks, the difficulty of keeping the question fresh and not mantra-like was unexpected. ETA: WTF is up with the formatting here??? There should be paragraphs.

-- tomo
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13 years 6 months ago #6211 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Practical Hua-Tou
I often did this practice during long walks - the walking seemed to give the periods of frustration a good outlet. It really is a terribly powerful practice when done right, and ranges (just like any good practice) from bringing up moments of awe to bringing up moments of utter rage. I perfected my pirate yell during a few particularly difficult times.
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13 years 6 months ago #6212 by Jackson
Replied by Jackson on topic Practical Hua-Tou
This is great, Tomo! Thanks for starting this thread.

Your're right - keeping the doubt fresh in experience is difficult. As you aluded to, simply repeating (silently) the word "who" is not enough. There's a certainly quality of genuine questioning that must accompany the word. That's what I think Stuart is pointing to. It's bona fide curiosity.

If you can keep it going, it will gain momentum. It's hard to trust this when you haven't experienced any building effect, but that's where "faith" comes in; that is, the kind of faith that say, "People I know and have some confidence in have done this practice, and they have seen a result. I can do the practice, too, and also see the results." The important thing is just to keep doing the practice, instead of trying to do the result. Make sense?

Growing the doubt during dog walking is a terrific idea, as long as you remember to snap out of it before crossing the street. Otherwise, the corpse being dragged around may end up... well, just a corpse ;-)
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13 years 6 months ago #6213 by Jackson
Replied by Jackson on topic Practical Hua-Tou
WRT the formating, I agree that it's a pain in the arse. If you can drop the entire message into a text editor that has an option to remove the formatting, do that first. Than paste it back in and use the formatting tools native to the site. That seems to eliminate any problems I encounter. An extra step, yes - but to me it's worth it.
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13 years 6 months ago #6214 by Tom Otvos
Replied by Tom Otvos on topic Practical Hua-Tou
I just clarified with Stuart something that wasn't immediately obvious: the h-t phrase can be modified slightly to fit circumstances. So in my case, "who is dragging this body around" is entirely appropriate when doing physical stuff, including walking the dog, getting out of bed, etc. But it seemed an odd thing to ask while in seated meditation. In that case, "who is sitting" is a better, and equally acceptable, choice.

That is now how I am approaching this.

-- tomo
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13 years 5 months ago #6215 by Tom Otvos
Replied by Tom Otvos on topic Practical Hua-Tou
I haven't updated recently, so here it is.

While I continue to do the practice both on- and off-cushion, I am finding that for shorter sitting sessions, it is almost counter-productive. I feel as though I need to get some level of concentration and focus established before asking the question, otherwise it is just a mantra, and short sits just don't cut it. For longer sessions, or for long walks, I seem to be getting somewhere. The latter, in particular, seems to engage me more so that I begin to feel a fluttering in my chest when I just ask "Why?" repeatedly?

During the day, asking here and there seems to be doing nothing, nothing perceptible at least.

As always, it seems that time is the crucial element regardless of what practice is done. Time produces momentum, and momentum induces change. At least, that's the way I see it.

-- tomo
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13 years 5 months ago #6216 by Tom Otvos
Replied by Tom Otvos on topic Practical Hua-Tou
Oh, and I will add that while walking in particular, I frequently flip the question around and ask "Who is this body carrying around?" It is intellectually satisfying, which just shows how much work I still have to do.

-- tomo
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13 years 5 months ago #6217 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Practical Hua-Tou
"During the day, asking here and there seems to be doing nothing..."

I agree absolutely that setting aside time to focus on practice is an important kind of practice, and one that often produces a level of concentration that rarely be found "asking here and there". But aside from that, as to this supplemental (during the day...here and there) type practice:

I think there is something to be said for it. That is, if you repeat an intention, affirmation, thought, question throughout the day - even without making a big focused deal of it, even just in a rote, mantra-like way - it still has an effect. The effect of feeling an altered state arise when you say it is not relevant in this context, I think. It is normal to want to "feel a result" in the form of an altered state when doing anything "spiritual," but that is really limiting practice to times when you have the right atmosphere to get into a bit of a trance.

Just because you don't get that "hit" or "buzz", doesn't mean that you aren't adding to the unconscious pervasiveness of the technique, idea, question, devotional phrase, etc which only adds to the momentum of your practice overall.

It's like those affirmation things for kids who feel ugly, to look in the mirror each morning and say "You are beautiful" - doesn't matter if you don't believe it, don't feel different when you say it, hate saying it, whatever - if you say it for long enough one day you will realize it has started working on you and you are starting to believe it.

Thoughts?
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13 years 5 months ago #6218 by Tom Otvos
Replied by Tom Otvos on topic Practical Hua-Tou


Thoughts?

-ona


I cannot discount any subconscious "accumulation" that may be happening which, by definition, I cannot see nor feel. I will ask Stuart about this, because my read of it is that it only really starts to help once the h-t becomes "alive".

-- tomo
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13 years 5 months ago #6219 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Practical Hua-Tou
If he says anything relevant to the discussion here I'd love to hear about it.
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13 years 5 months ago #6220 by Jake Yeager
Replied by Jake Yeager on topic Practical Hua-Tou
I seem to experience this "accumulation." I practice self-inquiry, asking myself "What am I?" I haven't had any non-dual experiences, but I do find positive changes in my personality as well as new insights into my behavior. I practice throughout the day, asking the question 2 - 3 times every half-hour. I also continue the practice during meditation. I have found that personality changes and insights have come more rapidly since starting this practice.
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13 years 5 months ago #6221 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Practical Hua-Tou
Personality changes? Such as?
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13 years 5 months ago #6222 by Jake Yeager
Replied by Jake Yeager on topic Practical Hua-Tou
I am less nervous around people, can more easily engage people. I find that the fear is not so great. I also seem to start to see what it means to be "authentic." This deals with not worrying as much about whether people like me and being simply more comfortable in general. This all seems to be happening more rapidly since I've started practicing self-inquiry along with sitting. Also, I see that there was this urgency before to awaken and that manifested during my meditation, but that's not much of a factor anymore. It's definitely helping me see through stuff or is just erasing stuff.

One thing I need to work on is dealing with conflict as I am still very fearful in such situations.
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13 years 5 months ago #6223 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Practical Hua-Tou
I guess I don't classify those things as "personality." They're more subtle and malleable than personality. But what do I know? No doubt there's a spectrum of subtle to manifest, but I don't see meditation's effects ever actually changing one's personality at a deep, manifest level. I think it changes one's existing tendencies, allowing some to be emphasized more, others to be de-emphasized, maybe even dropped.
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13 years 5 months ago #6224 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Practical Hua-Tou
I think that's picking on the technicalities of personality, chris. I would say my personality has changed (in common english) when telling someone how i used to be really shy and now I'm not, etc. Not using it in a scientific way, just as a way to generally common-language gesture at a person's behaviors, preferences, style of being, etc.
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13 years 5 months ago #6225 by Jake Yeager
Replied by Jake Yeager on topic Practical Hua-Tou
I guess another way to look at it is that practice allows one's natural personality to manifest. Depends on the definition of personality.
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13 years 5 months ago #6226 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Practical Hua-Tou
I don't think it's that simple, Ona. My question is this -- does meditation, when successful at transforming something about us, change our personalities? I say no, we are not changing personality, and further assert that the terminology we use to describe what does change matters quite a lot.

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13 years 5 months ago #6227 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Practical Hua-Tou
"Depends on the definition of personality."

Exactly!
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13 years 5 months ago #6228 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Practical Hua-Tou
What I heard in Sunyata's post was that he was feeling better about himself and that the practices he has been doing seem to be contributing to that improvement. And I think that's a really great thing, because the level of life crappiness we endure at points in our lives can be really overwhelming. I've experienced it, most people I know have experienced it. And when there some relief from that, a little space to feel some encouragement, I think that's really cool.

I don't much care if the person expresses it in a non-technical way.
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13 years 5 months ago #6229 by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Practical Hua-Tou
That's cool, Ona. I'm interested in using more precision in the language we use to describe the effects of mediation. I'm certain these things are compatible, not mutually exclusive. The reason is that I encounter folks who read message boards and books and then ask questions that are very clearly driven by misunderstandings of terminology. I know people who have refused to meditate because they didn't want their "personality" to be changed. So make sure to put a lot of caveats jun front of everything I say but I really do think the language matters.
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13 years 5 months ago #6230 by Jake Yeager
Replied by Jake Yeager on topic Practical Hua-Tou
Yeah, thanks for the validation Ona. That's exactly how I feel.

Of course, the practice is also making me more aware of ugly stuff, so it's seemingly a double-edged sword sometimes.

One thing I've noticed is that I take on "feeling-tones" very easily. For example, I spent the last three days at a mental health conference where there were many consumers (of mental health services) present and yesterday evening after returning I felt really unstable, like I was going crazy. It stabilized a bit after sitting yesterday evening and I am more or less back to "normal" now. But I have noticed a similar effect when I watch movies: I'll take on the feeling-tone of the movie, so that, say, I am energized to be a kickass covert spy after watching the Jason Bourne trilogy. It's a very distinct feeling that aligns with the movie's presentation. The feeling-tone will pass with time or after I sit. Anyone else have this experience?
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13 years 5 months ago #6231 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Practical Hua-Tou



That's cool, Ona. I'm interested in using more precision in the language we use to describe the effects of mediation. I'm certain these things are compatible, not mutually exclusive. The reason is that I encounter folks who read message boards and books and then ask questions that are very clearly driven by misunderstandings of terminology. I know people who have refused to meditate because they didn't want their "personality" to be changed. So make sure to put a lot of caveats jun front of everything I say but I really do think the language matters.


-cmarti


Ah, in that context I understand.
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13 years 5 months ago #6232 by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Practical Hua-Tou


Yeah, thanks for the validation Ona. That's exactly how I feel.
Of course, the practice is also making me more aware of ugly stuff, so it's seemingly a double-edged sword sometimes.
One thing I've noticed is that I take on "feeling-tones" very easily. For example, I spent the last three days at a mental health conference where there were many consumers (of mental health services) present and yesterday evening after returning I felt really unstable, like I was going crazy. It stabilized a bit after sitting yesterday evening and I am more or less back to "normal" now. But I have noticed a similar effect when I watch movies: I'll take on the feeling-tone of the movie, so that, say, I am energized to be a kickass covert spy after watching the Jason Bourne trilogy. It's a very distinct feeling that aligns with the movie's presentation. The feeling-tone will pass with time or after I sit. Anyone else have this experience?


-sunyata


I think that's pretty human, if I think about watching kids coming out of a kung fu movie and they'll be doing the moves and play fighting and all jazzed up or watching people coming out of a sad movie and they'll be holding kleenex. We are wired to pick up on the moods of the people around us, even "fake" people in a movie. Horror movies get us wound up because we are identifying with the fear of the victims and the adrenalin of the fights and so on.

I personally find I am not very comfortable with a lot of noise and crowds, and often need to wind down after being in a scene like a big conference, party, club, street festival, traveling, etc. Some people say it's a sensitivity relating to mediumship, but I suspect it's more to do with my personality, which has always preferred solitude and quiet. (Not that I never enjoy boisterousness - I do - but I tend to have a short span of tolerance before I need a break.) I do best at parties or events where there's some area outside where I can go and sit quietly and talk to a friend or stare at the sky and then go back in to the chaos. Otherwise I tend to want to go home after a couple hours.
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13 years 5 months ago #6233 by Jake Yeager
Replied by Jake Yeager on topic Practical Hua-Tou
"We are wired to pick up on the moods of the people around us, even "fake" people in a movie." - ona

Def. But I think some people may be more sensitive to the moods of others.

I have a very similar tendency when at parties or around crowds. I usually test pretty high on introversion.
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