General Practice Updates

I can't figure out how to quote only partial posts or reply systematically to one paragraph at a time. I see that it can be done because others are doing it but please excuse me, until I can figure this out I'll just do my best to respond in an appropriate order...

regarding the lip under the nose.. I chose that spot because it seemed to stand out to me as an easily identifiable nexus of sensation and somewhat neutral so it was my assumption that that would be a good place to start. On a related note I read a portion of the instructions at the link you provided and it is interesting that one would use different areas depending on anxiety levels, headaches or desired result. That had not occurred to me but I suppose that's a whole other thread:)

As far as the experience of access concentration.. I had originally confused it for one of the first two jhanas but with further research and noticing that there was no bliss associated with my experience (although it was very pleasant) I would describe it as spacious. My awareness seemed to widen and rest at the same time. There was no effort in holding the state, only that I had to resist the urge to attempt to stabilize what was already stable. The visual field was slightly blurred (this may have been because it was dark in the room and I was in bed nearing sleep) but brighter. I was very calm and all the sense fields were just kind of there. It was exactly like this both times so I'm certain it was the same state.

I will read the instruction on the link provided a few more times to familiarize myself with them and give it a try in my next sit.

I'm getting used to being overwhelmed with information in these circles. There is a very helpful enthusiasm:) It's refreshing and motivating.

Thanks:)

Thanks for the extra details, Duane.

"I will read the instruction on the link provided a few more times to familiarize myself with them and give it a try in my next sit."

Great idea. That will be a good way of seeing what skills you have already developed, and which you may want to become more proficient at.

I think a lot of people work their way through more territory than they realize, given that we have such high and exalted expectations for what these concentration states are supposed to be like. The flip-side can also be true, though. We can easily confuse ourselves into thinking we're a lot more proficient than we are.

The way to remedy both types of confusion is the same: continued practice! (Or, rather, "continuous" practice!) Well, that, and also further study and conversation with friends who are also into this stuff. That's why we all keep coming back here

It sounds like you're doing great, and I can tell you have an attitude toward practice that will continue to serve you well. Keep up the good work.

I am still familiarizing myself with the instructions from that link (it takes me awhile to absorb things) so I stuck with what I know here. This was my first sit past 20 minutes.

Oct. 18, 2011 30 min sit (pm)

Began counting breath (1-10 and then backwards in cycles)

Feelings of anticipation, almost a body buzz

Mind noise and dialog of expectations

Stopped counting and shifted to calm abiding

Let thoughts arise and asked: (quietly in my head)

"Where is this coming from?"

"What are these made of?"

Then asked: "Where is the intention to ask these questions coming from?"

Mind noise abruptly stopped fallowed by something weird that I can't quite describe and then joyful amusement for a moment

Continued calm abiding with thoughts and body sensations

Started to become bored

Shifted to maintaining alertness as object (I've been doing this at work for 10 hours a day for about 2 months now)

Muscle and joint tension in upper back, shoulder and especially the base
of the neck (as if there was a blockage there - could have been my
imagination) suddenly became bothersome

(Here I had some sort of understanding about tension in the body, it's release and how that effects spaciousness in the body)

Continued to maintain alertness

Some dialog about how much longer until my timer would go off

Just kept gently returning to alertness

When the timer went off I was extremely surprised as I was certain i had at least another 15 minutes left.

When I moved, joints in neck and back popped surprisingly painfully

These are really good notes, Duane. I don't always jump right into analysis, but what follows is a tentative hypothesis for the territory that you may have covered during this sit:



Duane: "Then asked: "Where is the intention to ask these questions coming from?"
Mind noise abruptly stopped fallowed by something weird that I can't quite describe and then joyful amusement for a moment"



In this moment, it appears as though you recognized that thoughts and intentions are objects that arise in experience, just like body sensations. The weird "something" and joyful amusement, however brief, sound to me like signs pointing to your having reached the first insight stage - "Mind and Body".



Duane: "Continued calm abiding with thoughts and body sensations
Started to become bored
Shifted to maintaining alertness as object [...]

Muscle and joint tension in upper back, shoulder and especially the base of the neck (as if there was a blockage there - could have been my imagination) suddenly became bothersome"



Here you describe how the effects of the weird "something" wore off (resulting in boredom), leading to your decision to change up your practice to get a different result. You can see here that what you do, what you think, how you perceive - all affect your experience. This could be the second stage - "Cause & Effect".



Duane: "(Here I had some sort of understanding about tension in the body, it's release and how that effects spaciousness in the body)
Continued to maintain alertness
Some dialog about how much longer until my timer would go off
Just kept gently returning to alertness"



Duane, cont. "When I moved, joints in neck and back popped surprisingly painfully"

Here it appears that you're describing a transition from recognizing that "this leads to that" to an understanding of just how painful it all is. It tends to manifest in your body, quite strongly, in the third stage - "(Comprehension of the) Three Characteristics".

So far, it looks like the strategy you employed once reaching the discomfort of the third stage (or moving into it) was kind of aversive. Thoughts like, "Is this sit over yet?" and continually trying to return to awareness, though not really being able to, are suggestive of a struggle with the experience in the present moment. This is normal, of course. Nothing to get down about. It's actually a good sign, in that it means things are moving along as they should.

If I'm correct in my analysis (which may or may not be the case), the following may be helpful. When things are uncomfortable in practice, bring your attention there. Don't worry so much about being attentive to attentiveness. Be accepting and receptive to the prominent factors of experience, whether pleasant or unpleasant. Consider each arising to be a friend with a story. Your job is to listen to the story, and let it go when it's over, so you can listen to the next story. Over and over again. At this point, there's not need to try and find something that isn't right NOW, in the most obvious way.

Helpful? Feel free to tell me "no" if that's the case. I'm perfectly capable of being wrong about this.

Keep practicing well!

Jackson

Thanks, Jackson:)

Yes, helpful. .. and thanks for the compliment on the note taking. I've had a good bit of very useful guidance from Jake (who is a member here) and learned how to take notes well from him.

If your diagnosis is correct or not I can't be sure because I'm still pretty new to all this but it sounds pretty reasonable and lines up with what I know and what I've experienced.

Jackson: "...When things are uncomfortable in practice,
bring your attention there. Don't worry so much about being attentive to
attentiveness. Be accepting and receptive to the prominent factors of
experience, whether pleasant or unpleasant. Consider each arising to be a
friend with a story. Your job is to listen to the story, and let it go
when it's over, so you can listen to the next story. Over and over
again. At this point, there's not need to try and find something that
isn't right NOW, in the most obvious way."

I have used this tactic before with very interesting results (usually impermanence would become very obvious) but I haven't had a long sit in awhile and pretty much forgot to do that. Thanks for bringing it back to my attention:)

Is it appropriate to continue to log sitting practice here on his thread? I haven't seen dedicated personal practice threads on this forum so either you guys don't do that here or I haven't found them... ?

Thanks again!
Duane

Hi Duane - I think you may just be the first one to do a dedicated practice thread. Might make sense to make one just for your practice, since this one already has a hodge-podge of posts from a variety of people in it.

Hi Duane,

We haven't really ventured into the dedicated, ongoing practice journal thing at this site. We seem to place a higher premium on group dialog, and general updates fit well into the mix of what we have going on here. In my view, regular practice journals work best at forums where there is an official teacher or teachers, or even a specific body of teachings being practiced by lots of forum members. Neither factors are really at work here, at least not intentionally.

That said, I don't want to discourage you from writing about your practice and asking questions among friends. I suggest that you keep taking notes, but maybe a full on practice thread isn't necessary. If you would like some feedback or support regarding something that comes up for you during practice (on the whole - not just sitting), feel free to use this thread or a new thread with a more targetted title.

How does that sound? I'm open to making changes to the way things are run around here, if the group as a whole would find such changes beneficial and enjoyable.

Thanks for getting back to me on that.
I wanted to be sure befor I hijacked your forum:)
That all sounds fine.

Speaking of journals, does everyone here keep a written journal? I do, though I'm less fastidious about it lately than I used to be. I didn't tend to keep a written journal before I started meditating, except sporadically as a teenager.

And on another subject, I haven't seen Zach for ages. Anyone heard from him?

I keep a daily log book that I include my practice, dreams, martial arts curriculum notes and any other related noticings.
It seems to reinforce paying attention:)

I've wanted to for some time. One of my classes this semester is on Haibun, the Japanese literary form pioneered by Basho which blends short prose with haiku. It's been really cool so far. It's helped me notice how much language shapes my experience of life and how shifting to a more poetic approach to language and to journaling has been shifting my experience of the flow of life towards a more open ended, fresh end of the spectrum.

And yeah, I've missed Zach lately too!

I started out keeping a written paper notebook. When I started working with a teacher I started keeping a digital text file instead, to make it easier to send to him each week. For a while I continued to also write in the paper notebook, but that became tedious. So I switched to digital only since then. I now also keep a journal online on another forum ( www.salomesrevenge.com ), which is an edited-for-the-public version of my personal journal with an emphasis on magickal work, though I also include my meditation practice.

Oh cool I'll have to check that out! Yeah I've gone entirely digital too. I say I've never journalled but I have hundreds of pages of notebooks going back to adolescence. I just remembered cuz I saw a stack on a shelf. Identity is a funny thing: "I" don't "journal" but yet I've accumulated all these notebooks full of reflections over the years

I hate the word 'journaling'. At some point in college I burned all my old "diaries" from high school and whatnot, which were full of accounts of silly social dramas and bad poetry.

You know what's really cool? So these notebooks have been following me around informally, just tagging along from move to move, and now and then I'll check em out again and see how my perspectives and tendencies have changed-- as things I speculated or wondered about gradually became experientially settled (all these notebooks going back to adolescence are focused on reality, psychology, philosophy, experience, etc rather than incidents or stories).

Well, when my Mum passed last year and we were all sorting through her belongings, notebooks and especially drawing pads and dictated stories that I "wrote" going back to age 2-3 up through 11-12 were among her belongings. Very wild to check that stuff out, and to see just how far back my interest in arcane things goes (as evidenced by some of these stories I dictated, or comments I made that were written down.)

You know what's really cool? So these notebooks have been following me around informally, just tagging along from move to move, and now and then I'll check em out again and see how my perspectives and tendencies have changed-- as things I speculated or wondered about gradually became experientially settled (all these notebooks going back to adolescence are focused on reality, psychology, philosophy, experience, etc rather than incidents or stories).
Well, when my Mum passed last year and we were all sorting through her belongings, notebooks and especially drawing pads and dictated stories that I "wrote" going back to age 2-3 up through 11-12 were among her belongings. Very wild to check that stuff out, and to see just how far back my interest in arcane things goes (as evidenced by some of these stories I dictated, or comments I made that were written down.)


-jake

Good find. Could be of use in your memoirs;)

Ha!

I've got this probably kind of odd thing going in which I'm consciously NOT "practicing." Which is, of course, a practice.

I think it is very related to the "no gaining idea" of the soto zen of suzuki roshi. If I notice myself starting to do something that is motivated by ambition, self improvement, a desire to change who I am in the world or how I am feeling at any given moment -- I stop. The dominant attitude is that I am always "done," always just right -- nothing "out there" necessary.

Now I like this. It isn't easy. I have to undo myself all day long everyday and I often find that I've gone hours or even a day or more all caught up in self improvement projects or involved in some kind of self critique. But I'm dedicated to this non practice practice right now.

Anyway -- as I go along I'm finding my body coming alive with sensations/vibrations just like it was when I was doing constant intensive vipassana. And, the desire to sort of gently notice these and synch up with them seems natural. There are many times throughout a day in which I am sitting quietly and I just start to do vipassana with no real effort behind it. It just happens (with gaining ideas coming and going of course).

This week it has gotten stronger and over the last couple of days the synch ups have been accompanied by weak rapture and strong energy surges up the spine and to my crown. And, my spot in the middle of my forehead is very active in a pleasant way. Yesterday and this morning I practiced synching up with the vibrations in the forehead "chakra" spot and had strong strong energy surges along with seeing bright white light when I closed my eyes. There is also that "jerk awake" feeling closely followed by a little blip of pleasure.

I don't know what any of this means, I'm just going with it and watching it and trying not to turn it into something in my head. Which isn't easy, if you know my head.

As far as I can tell, these experiences seem to be strictly physical activities -- I don't detect any resultant insight or wisdom that increases my apprehension of my true nature and/or brings increased freedom from suffering.

But, I'll tell you this -- this past six to eight weeks have been the best of my life. (and for those who are keeping score I did start drinking, etc.

"I've got this probably kind of odd thing going in which I'm consciously NOT "practicing." Which is, of course, a practice.
I
think it is very related to the "no gaining idea" of the soto zen of
suzuki roshi. If I notice myself starting to do something that is
motivated by ambition, self improvement, a desire to change who I am in
the world or how I am feeling at any given moment -- I stop."

Seems good to me, Mike. Two or three years ago, during a period of following up on promising Thomas Cleary Zen/Taoist classics translations I encountered a title that has stuck with me as a kind of pointing-out: 'Stopping and Seeing.' At first I thought-- 'Oh, cool: that's like a Ch'an version of Shamatha-Vipashyna, right?' But as time has gone on, it seems like a complete encapsulation of the essentials of practice: whatever stops you in the midst of your habitual doing-what-you've-always-done practice-- on any level-- enables 'seeing', both literal and metaphorical, what you've not seen before. At about the same time my Ch'an teacher said: 'Meditation is whatever you do that facilitates the View.'

It could be just sitting down and letting the mental mechanisms fade out to quiet open space. It could be on-the-spot inquiry on the cushion, or couch with your family, or desk chair or at the watercooler at your job. [And I'm a big fan of what I'd call 'found inquiry'-- like hearing Amy Poehler asking, 'Really?... Really??' when you're mentally or audibly saying something habitual about who or what you-- or someone else-- 'are'.]

And I've concluded in the last few years that 'non-meditation', breaking down the walls between 'practice' and 'life' is absolutely crucial for real practice. At first a distinction has to be made, in order to develop certain skills. But that's a preliminary, and can become a trap if adhered to past its time. It can lead to spending inordinate amounts of time in doctrinal hair-splitting and technical geekery-- a fine hobby for those who like that sort of thing, but hardly transformative.

"... and for those who are keeping score I did start drinking, etc."

As you and I talked this over in person last month it became pretty clear to me that you don't have a real problem in that regard.




-cmarti

Somehow, I keep remembering this post and wondering about three things: 'for those who are keeping score' [Who is keeping score, do you think?]

and 'I did start drinking' [Is there a difference between having/sharing a drink with friends or family, and 'starting drinking' as some sort of habitual activity with ramifications for 'who I am?']

and 'etc.' [How far does etc. territory stretch?]

Hoping you hear this as the friend's inquiry that I intend, and not the inquisition of the sharp schoolmarm I know I sometimes can be. I don't know what the answers to these questions are, or even if asking them is useful-- but I hope that it is, and that your answers will be useful to you.

"Keeping score" was a lame attempt at humor maybe to deflect from a bit of embarrassment over bringing up the subject. I'm sure no one is actually keeping score or paying a lot of attention to that.



Starting means after after six months of sobriety I'm drinking quite a bit - at least four drinks a day.



Etc. - Weed.

I've known a few people who were hard core AA types, always in recovery, and well-- that worked for them. But clearly there's some dogma there, and some replacing one addiction with another (coffee and cigarettes and the groups and etc).

I've also know people who were clearly alcoholics, a few for decades, who now are quite able to have one (or four) glasses of wine or beer and smoke some pot or whatever and, hey, they're just normal people having a few drinks.

It all comes down to self-honesty and being authentic, don't you think, which has a lot to do with practice-- especially the practice of no-practice!

And I've concluded in the last few years that 'non-meditation', breaking down the walls between 'practice' and 'life' is absolutely crucial for real practice. At first a distinction has to be made, in order to develop certain skills. But that's a preliminary, and can become a trap if adhered to past its time. It can lead to spending inordinate amounts of time in doctrinal hair-splitting and technical geekery-- a fine hobby for those who like that sort of thing, but hardly transformative.

-kategowen

Kate, I read the above and thought, “bless you” - not in a post-sneeze, reflexive sort of way (haha), but in an appreciative, “you just warmed my heart,” sort of way.

Yes, the distinction between practice and everyday life should be temporary. The path, at first, is like skillful-clinging. But if that’s all it is, just developing skills and never integrating them, what’s the point? It would be like practicing free throws by yourself, day after day, thinking that one of these days you will make that last, pivotal shot that will instantly transform you into an NBA (or, WNBA) pro. Both you (in this example) and a real (W)NBA pro both had to develop skills outside of the game, but the superstar didn’t wait until they perfected the perfect shot before they got in the game. The game itself is practice, but it’s also the reason for the practice. We practice to play, and playing is practice. And one only needs a certain amount of preliminary skills training before they can jump in with others and start the “advanced” practice of the game itself.

Of course, even the pros (most of them) regularly withdraw to practice the fundamentals.

I’m not one for using sports analogies, as I’m just not a sports-guy. So, I hope it wasn’t too off the mark :-/

RE: journals

I used keep one more regularly, adding at least one entry per day. Most of what I kept is in online form, though I have some in print.

I stopped writing as frequently because it started getting in the way. I started getting tired of hearing myself think, and writing it all down just seem too laborious most of the time.

And honestly, sometimes reading previous entries can be embarrassing :-/ I can't even count how many times I thought I had it all figured out, and wrote about it. It's hard to want to write something down when I know that most of what I say won't be relevant even a few days from now.

Maybe that's the point, though. Maybe it's good to see just how often I change my mind, and how easily I can be influenced by what I'm reading or whatever else is going on in my life. It reminds me not to cling so much, you know? Not to plant my feet, lest wind or wave catches me off-guard and knocks down, bruising my gentle posterior