General Practice Updates

I'm realizing that there is a "rest" state that is available. It seems to have always been here but not very accessible.[...] It's a sort of bottom line, where the entire body and mind complex is quiet and still. It allows for a very equanimous level of observation of what's going on in the environment and the higher the energy coming into the sense doors the more concentration it requires to stay in this rest state. In this place the usual distractions of mind/body appear in a "third person" sort of way, in what I would call the movie track, not in the narrative track.Not me, in other words.

-cmarti

You mentioned something about dropping into this state when bringing awareness to the back of your neck, right? I think I heard Thanissaro Bhikkhu say in one of his teaching podcasts that the body has a "stillness energy" that can be accessed at different places in the body. He mentioned the lower belly, the throat, and I think the solar plexus. I've had better luck with the lower belly and solar plexus, but I'm not surprised to hear that the throat area was a point of discovery for you.

Jackson, I think we now you well enough here that you need not make this statement - unless of course it makes you feel better about posting about your practice. I am, however, jealous of one thing that you have that I don't -- that badge next to your name in the "Recently Online" tab

-cmarti

Haha, yes - the badge is super hot. Maybe we can trade roles for a while, so you can taste the sweetness of being adorned with such a stunningly handsome accessory.

Also, I know that you guys are unlikely to misread my posts. I just don't want any anonymous bystanders to think I'm claiming done-ness. Just being extra careful is all. If it's obnoxious (and you can all be honest about this; I can take the criticism), I'd be happy to stop adding disclaimers

'I'm realizing that there is a "rest" state that is available. It seems
to have always been here but not very accessible. I don' think it
appeared before my practice reached a certain point but it's honestly
hard to recall now. It is becoming more and more accessible, maybe
because of the recent developments in my practice but maybe not. I can't
figure out the cause/effect relationships. It's a sort of bottom line,
where the entire body and mind complex is quiet and still.'

ROFL

Everything old is new, isn't it? -- must be why they call it 'resting in the natural state.'

I'm prone to rediscovering all kinds of old things. You should know this by now!

-cmarti

Every teaching I've ever sat with comes right around again and again.

I'm prone to rediscovering all kinds of old things. You should know this by now!


-cmarti

O lucky man!

Maybe 'Doh! I knew that!' and 'beginner's mind' are not so far apart? Life as a succession of first encounters that snap your head around.

Thanks Jackson, this is exactly what I was interested in, yes. Too late at my side of the world. More tomorrow.

Because the more diverse the descriptions of the same thing the better chance all of us have to actually "get" it. So I've started using the movie analogy but because that's how the effects appear to me to be best described.


-cmarti

Right on And I like the movie analogy. My son was watching a cartoon on public TV the other morning and for some reason there was a sort of voice over for blind kids running through the show, describing everything that was happening. Kinda like that?

This was a really huge thing for me this time last year. Somehow it seemed to be triggered upon leaving the movie Inception. I got really fascinated with the way that the narrative track seems to think it knows stuff, but it's really just commenting on something that's already known because already being experienced. I remember watering these plants at work, bending over and watching the water flow into the planter, and sharply noticing how there was a simple direct completely lucid knowing in the simple flow of sensations: hearing, seeing, moving hands all knew what to do-- and yet there was this commentary track on a slight delay butting in as if IT was the one doing all the stuff it was only describing! Really funny

It's really interesting, isn't it! I remember the first time I ever saw that the little narrative track at all. The slight delay and its sense of importance are really comical, given enough perspective.

Part of journal entry from that day, which followed two really terrifying fear-ridden sits:

"...returned to meditating, energy settled quickly into calm and concentration. mild tension in back, breath free and easy, lots of insignificant mental chatter. Watching and noting the chatter. What purpose does it serve, really? It's like describing a movie for a blind person "now he's getting in the car...the door closes...his wife waves..." YAWN!!! The chatter seems to be its own thing, separate from whatever "me" is paying attention to things. Occasional shifts to attention on vision/sight. Nothing to see, but just noticing sight itself. Very little attention to any emotional stuff except mild amusement occasionally."

"Kinda like that?"

Yes, just like that, Jake. The narrative track can't control anything, ever, because it's on a delay. All it can do is comment, like the proverbial peanut gallery. It can say anything, it can pretend to control or cause events and actions, it can complain, get fearful, protective, or angry, and it can, thereby, cause a lot of suffering, but that suffering is more or less "self-inflicted."

The rest of the movie goes on its merry way no matter what the narration track does. That's the real movie, and that's our real experience. And... it happens to no one in particular, all the time.

-cmarti

I (wrongly I hope) sometimes think that if I don't or haven't seen things in this way that I don't qualify to share on this forum. It's like this is the awakened view and the fact that I don't quite see it that way shows, frankly, that I'm not awake. But, either way, I think I should from time to time share my divergent opinion first, so that I can be shown another way, and, second, to maybe help others to clarify what they see.

So, for me, the narrative track isn't pretending to control or cause events and actions -- it actually does. Now, if the narrative is just left to spin along without any interaction with, I guess, the cognisizing part of the mind then, yes, I see that it won't have much impact. But I see myself all the time listening to the narrative and then doing things that effect myself or other people based upon that listening. I see others doing it as well. And then, all these actions cause another narrative track that create more actions and then more narration, etc.

I don't see life as just a "movie" that just happens all by itself. Myriad individual entities contribute based upon what just happend, their own genes, traumas, needs, situations, skills, abilities, fears, desires. RIght now I think we are empty of what we may have thought of as a person or a self but that doesn't mean our minds and our bodies don't do stuff.

Please don't take this as throwing down the gauntlet or something for a big debate. I'm just reacting and thinking out loud and hoping for a gentle discussion.

"I (wrongly I hope) sometimes think that if I don't or haven't seen
things in this way that I don't qualify to share on this forum."

Mike, I'd absolutely never, ever, agree that if you haven't happened to have notice or experience this or that, you aren't supposed to post. Half the people here post about stuff I have never experienced, and I feel free to babble away, hogging the airwaves with my random stories. There are no prizes, awards or special privileges because one person has some falling into a black void experience and another sees some narrative track and another spends five hours a day in a jhanic bliss state.

When there are moments of recognition (yay, someone else had the same weird experience I did!) it can feel like a bit of a relief to know you aren't the only one. It feels good sometimes to share those stories, especially when things are difficult or strange and you wonder if you are the only one having this novel perspective on things. But from my view (and I'd bet from all of the folks here), this does not make anybody special or superior. No one is handing out grades and gold stars. To believe that would be, in my opinion, the height of arrogance, and I really hope I never come across that way.

I really enjoy your frank participation in the conversations.

PS - however, check out this science report about how we seem to make decisions before we are even aware of it:

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

I recall reading this some years ago and being baffled and fascinated. Lately I'm inclined to think it's pretty true. It sort of undermines what we usually believe about decision making!!

BTW, Mike, all questions are welcome here. If we can't explain our own comments, rephrase them or do better to communicate what comes across as confusing to others then we should hang our beds in shame


-cmarti

hang our heads?

Never. I'm not qualified to post...

I remember talking about a lot of this, but I've remained unconvinced (for now) I guess. I don't see why the fact that there is a seeming lag between thinking and doing, or, that we do things and mistakenly assume that it was based upon a conscious thought that actually happened after some unconscious impluse that really caused the action means that there isn't some kind of "actor" inside these bodies.

(of course as often happens to me, I could be completely misinterpreting what you are saying and disagreeing with something else entirely and not with your actual point of view)



I think, so far, that either I don't really get not or no self or I just have a different way of describing or understanding it than Chris or others have. I think not self is a way of pointing out that we aren't fixed and permanent, but rather, a process of constantly created ever changing patterns/impulses/thoughts/needs/instincts/etc. It's a strategy to help us loosen up, open up, and flow along with things as they really are rather than trying to stick to some fictional fixed idea of who and what we are.

I see us all (everything in the universe) interacting and effecting each other all the time. I feel myself and I feel you. What I'm feeling is fluid, everchanging and is born and dies moment to moment. The pattern of it that looks like a Mike or a Chris or an Ona will hang out for a while.