Questions About Fourth Path

Well, to add to all of this: I'm having a fair bit of depression these days. Some of it is physical: low energy still from recovery, symptoms brought on by attempting to withdraw from narcotic painkillers, which I've been taking almost daily for months now. Some of it is psychological: stress, guilt, grief, and self-doubt over my mother's future, plus miserable weather and a lack of constructive activity. How is depression post fourth different from past depressions? The desire to cry all the time, feelings of listlessness, lack of interest in things--all of this is familiar. I can more or less see it. But I can't exactly tell it to go away.

@Sadalsuud: your teacher seems to have been placing a very, very high value on the factor of faith in the path to enlightenment. I think it's important, but it can't possibly do the job on its own. Without conviction that enlightenment or awakening is possible, of course, a person would lack motivation to practice. But I have trouble with systems that place an over reliance on belief. I have faith that I will eventually see the other side of this depression, but I also accept that this will take whatever time it takes. In the meantime, it sucks. As a responsible person I must step up and do what's necessary for my own healing, as well as fulfill my obligations to others, no matter how it feels. So I won't do something stupid like get drunk. I may, however, binge out on Netflix (and feel rather foolish doing it).

One thing I do notice in this depression is a feeling of grief, as if I'm in mourning for the phenomenal world. Son Wei Yu recently posted on Dharma Connections the quotation that Form is Emptiness, and Emptiness is Form. I am clinging to Form and fearing Emptiness, and this after fourth path. Maybe I wouldn't have known enough to put it that way in the past; certainly not, now that I think of it. I knew what clinging felt like, but I didn't know it as clinging to form. I knew what fear felt like, but I didn't know it as fear of emptiness. And I am knowing all of this clearly, post fourth. Which leads me to ask: what is technical fourth path? Why would I be doing this at this point? Have I not really experienced fourth path, or is it possible that fourth path means we begin to know this kind of thing more clearly?

I had plenty of intimations about it prior to this point. I wanted the world of forms to be satisfactory, permanent, and personal. I began to realize even pre-path that that was what I desired at the bottom of my heart. And yet I persevered. So maybe now the sense of loss has a refinement to it that it lacked before.

There is a lot left to burn off, that much I do know, because I'm only a little over three months in. I accept this as fact. I want to record my experience to have it be part of the record. Two weeks ago I would have described it in completely different terms, because at that time I hadn't yet felt the bottom drop out.

I don't usually post links to my own blog except in my own practice thread, but I just remembered that I wrote something on this subject of awakening experiences and how we relate to them which is relevant to the discussion, so if you'll excuse me, I think I still agree with it, overall. onakiser.com/2013/07/05/putting-spiritua...nces-in-perspective/

@Laurel - in hindsight, for me, there was a sense of inevitability, necessity in what I experienced. I suppose one could say that over time, everything that happened became meaningful. Not that it had a specific meaning, but it gained a sense of relevance. How could I relate to my delusions in a new way if I didn't see my delusions? How could I come to really understand my anger, grief, fear, etc. if I didn't sit down at the table with it and get to know it face to face? Everything that came up and danced in front of my nose was exactly the giant pile of manure I needed to spread on my farm fields, so to speak.

There are many ways to describe spiritual process. I once said it could be described as coming into a deep and loving relationship with fear. But one could also say it is a development of a really deep, engaged, understanding of exactly who you are and how you work (warts and all). Or a careful study of the weather systems of Planet Laurel. Or a gradual maturing out of ones immature fantasies about how reality is supposed to behave. Or a dropping of the endless fight with God (reality) about how the universe is supposed to operate. Take your pick.

And faith, I'd say, experientially, for me at least, is the firm conviction to keep applying your practice even when it doesn't bring the results you are fantasizing about, even when it feels like you can't possibly find the courage, even when the shit is up to your eyeballs, even when you can't see the light. To believe in good times is easy. To find trust and courage in darkness is where the shit hits the fan and faith is all there is. To just take one step at a time, one breath at a time, repeating outloud whatever pointer or prayer is most relevant. In times of utter despair my handhold has ranged from "Fear is just a thought that arises and passes away all by itself." to "Lord, have mercy." to "I love you, Lord, no matter what." to "Thank you for the lesson." Why? Because I fully trusted my teacher, my friends, the saints, Scripture, and every other human and non-human resource I relied on.

(ETA: exhortation intended to be a cheerleading sort of encouragement. I hope it came across that way.)

(PPS - to the extent any of this veers off into "Laurel's Practice Thread", feel free to move it back there.)

This is intended to be about the subject, not about me. I am interested in how certain types of experiences might be affected by fourth technical path. That's the point. If others have experience with illness or psychological disturbances post fourth it would be great to compare. Daniel (to whom I am not presuming to compare myself) described.a relatively recent experience of the flu, for example.

@Laurel, think Kenneth said his depression went and has never reoccurred after Fourth Path? Of course, it depends how one defines or experiences 'depression' also.

@Chris, when I started practicing I would've been quite happy to live for years in a forest if that meant 'the end of suffering' - basically, anything that got me to that goal would've been worth it. And for anyone with a rebirth belief, that's also worth doing inasmuch as it ends the cycle of rebirth, so it's done not just for this lifetime. Plus, living blissfully and happily in the forest doesn't seem like such a bad goal, even if it's not my personal goal - I don't think it's only worthwhile doing these things if the intention is 'to do them in the marketplace,' so to speak.

I agree with Sadalsuud that from outward appearances Adya also seems like a possibility for someone who may have achieved or got close to the 'fetter' model, and that, if we're not actively out there getting close to people who claim they've done this kind of thing, it's hard to dismiss it as beyond any realm of human possibility - as any kind of 'awakening,' including the PD versions, is by most people (i.e. an unrealistic dream of someone who can't face reality). Again, I'm not saying I necessarily believe that the fetter model is possible, or possible for everyone, or easy, just that it seems limited to dismiss it prima facie as 'beyond the realm of human possibility.'

Because the whole worldview expressed by the Pali (and to a somewhat lesser degree, the Sanskrit) writings about awakening, spiritual practice and accomplishments don't resonate much with me until I see them translated into more familiar and significant terms-- I haven't attended much to ideas like "fetters" and extraordinary yogic feats.

Are others here really concerned about these criteria-- like how many times one can expect to be reborn into struggle, how many previous incarnations can be recalled, how little food or sleep one requires, how completely flatlined one's emotions are, and so forth? I am truly curious, and I understand myself to not reflect the norm, necessarily.

I see the 'fetters' model as distinct from yogic feats, recall of past lives etc for modern Western practitioners (although they come together in the textual sources) - inasmuch as the 'fetters' model need not be 'supernatural' or 'religious' whereas the other stuff definitely is (from a Modern Western/Enlightenment perspective). My observation would be that in PD circles it's usually the rejection of that 'supernatural' stuff which is the norm (i.e. rejection of the concept that awakening means that you can perform supernatural feats, recall previous births etc).

Personally, at the moment I don't have much interest in the metaphysical questions about rebirth etc (though I just came across a Hare Krishna past life regression class which I'm somewhat tempted to take), but I think it's important to remember that practice happens in different contexts and for different reasons, and that those are constantly adapted - so for example, a decision to live an ascetic life looks quite different in a culture that believes in rebirth because the whole idea of the goal of practice is quite distinct.

The 'fetters' model also relates to an 'end of suffering' model, I think, because it seems reasonable to think that, without greed, hatred and delusion, we would not suffer (obviously there's a few question marks over that, but in a general sense). So in that sense the fetters model might resonate very much where the 'supernatural yogic' stuff doesn't.

Double post

Chris Marti wrote: I think it should be considered a possibility, too, but it would be nice to have evidence. Experiential evidence that comes from being near such a person for an extended period of time. Like shargrol and some others, I'm of the opinion that the dropping of all fetters is an ideal. Human beings, by their very nature, are far from ideal. If extinguishing all the fetters requires being alone in the forest for 40 years and not interacting with others then of what value is the attainment? Kind of interesting to ponder that, I think.

This re-consideration of the goal as talked of in the pali suttas (as far as I understand it from my own readings of English translations) i.e. to end the flow of becoming while forest-ing it and living a life of renunciation more in line with the wandering forest monks rather than temple/city ones, is probably what triggered the Mahayana movement and all that followed.

@Rowan: Good point about Kenneth. I haven't been depressed in years, and I'm not sure how long this will last. It's been just a few days. But I'm guessing that withdrawal from prescription narcotics plays a big role. Kenneth probably didn't use drugs once he got practicing seriously. There's a reason for the fifth precept, I guess!

I think Kenneth said he went to a psychotherapist to end his depression. His "cure" might have nothing to do with path attainments. Shinzen Young was having a problem with procrastination and also went to a therapist for it.

There is no Fourth Path

Uh, Russell, quit being . . . annoying.

That goes double for you, Chris.

How about: "You know you are awake when you quit worrying about how awake you are."

Ona Kiser wrote: How about: "You know you are awake when you quit worrying about how awake you are."

Or you're just profoundly lazy.

Chris Marti wrote: I have to make practical choices in my life, and I have limited time. I have a family, need an income to support us all in various ways, and so on. So... I'm practicing at the pace I've always practiced at and it's still working for me. I'm generally empirically based, tending to the skeptical, so I like to see things for myself. I'm not denying anything anyone here has said and would hope you would all follow your own lights and hearts in regard to your practice.

Chris, I'm curious. What's your motivation to continue to practice? How does that fit with "How about being able to live with 'I don't know'?

andy wrote:

Chris Marti wrote: I have to make practical choices in my life, and I have limited time. I have a family, need an income to support us all in various ways, and so on. So... I'm practicing at the pace I've always practiced at and it's still working for me. I'm generally empirically based, tending to the skeptical, so I like to see things for myself. I'm not denying anything anyone here has said and would hope you would all follow your own lights and hearts in regard to your practice.

Chris, I'm curious. What's your motivation to continue to practice? How does that fit with "How about being able to live with 'I don't know'?

I'm curious in this context what "practice" means, because I suspect it might be different for different people.

Practice...life....its all the same.
From what I have experienced so far, it seems pretty clear that this just keeps going and perspective keeps shifting, like one of those films where it starts at a street or building and it keeps zooming out till you see the planet and then the solar system and so on until such levels of categorising are irrelevant and you just have space.

To that end the descriptions of the fetters model are probably indicative and aspirational or some interpretive filter is needed to understand what they mean (most of path descriptions have needed that in my experience - they are accurate descriptions but only from a perspective of one who has attained them haha). So being free of fetters, as discussed earlier in this thread (I think) probably means not being bound to those characteristics. After all that's what a fetter is - something that binds. So probably the binding is removed not the characteristic per se - and even if 4th path on the level we are discussing is not the same as the fetter free state described in the pali canon, I think its a difference in orders of magnitude rather than perspective and that at least a taste of that is already present in the 'Tech 4th path state' - where thoughts, emotions etc are still happening but you are just not sucked into them so much anymore. It would seem this just keeps going on ever increasing levels of subtlety.

So the only way to know is to keep going and maybe when I am about to die I might know - but verification is also an issue - how do you check if someone is fetter free? Everyone has a different perspective so how can you relate to what anyone describes unless its an identical experience especially when comparing across different spiritual traditions etc (keeping in mind the fetter model is from one specific tradition too). What actions confirm fetter free - actually if you strip away all fetters and try to visualise someone living day to day that way, I think they would basically be a vegetable since everything is so interconnected that every time you move or act, you are enforcing your separateness and, in some subtle way at least, to the suffering of some other seperate entity - all very circular and confusing. So really there are too many variables to tackle this from a logic and mind perspective.

So kids, act as if you are everything and nothing, don't think and all will be.....as it should be.

Rod wrote: ...everything is so interconnected that every time you move or act, you are enforcing your separateness and, in some subtle way at least, to the suffering of some other seperate entity...

This reminds me of a conversation I had with someone recently who was saying that there's on the one hand "oneness" and on the other hand she and I talking to each other as two separate beings.

I'm not sure that makes sense. I mean, I've heard it said many times, this idea that there is the relative and absolute, for instance, and we kind of are in (or aware of) one or the other or both, depending.

But that just seems like a philosophical construct or metaphor for a certain type of experience, or perhaps a form of expression from a particular tradition (Hindu??), rather than a description of reality. How do I, for instance, "enforce my separateness" every time I move or act?

I wonder sometimes if it's meant to describe how it can feel that sometimes one is awake and other times "forgetting" or "not so awake". But if that's the case, isn't that just a way of pointing out that one is separating experience into "this feels like I think awakening should feel and this other stuff doesn't feel like (I think) awakening should feel" and is thus dividing experience into categories based on clinging and aversion?

Or?

Chris Marti wrote:

But that just seems like a philosophical construct or metaphor for a certain type of experience,

And it is! Everything that can be communicated is a construct, a word, an idea, that gets sent across some medium that allows it move from mind to mind so it can be deconstructed on the other end.

I know, I know. I was intending the latter part to be the point, that the "separate vs non-separate" dichotomy metaphor as exampled in Rod's post doesn't resonate too well with me.