Questions About Fourth Path

Just to add some irony into this topic...

The biggest problem and productive driver of my practice has always been the tension between ideals of enlightenment, maps of enlightenment, and the reality of every teacher I ever met, including those with impeccable pedigrees who sure didn't seem like a fetter-free arhats. Beautiful people, good humans, but ideal never came to mind. I've done a few retreats with Santikaro (student and English translator for Buddhadasa) and his quirky humanity was a koan. And most recently, it was pondering this conundrum on a retreat with Viradhammo (an abbot in Ottawa and student of Ajahn Chah) and him talking about still having moments of believing his thoughts, that the topic insight likely happened. I didn't mention this on my thread, ( awakenetwork.org/forum/111-personal-prac...tuff?start=350#95266 ), but I was pondering "what is Viradhammo's experience of frustration and how is it different than mine?" At the same time, I was wondering, if the middle stage is seeing form as emptiness and the last stages is emptiness being form... how could emptiness be none other than form? And then it hit me, if emptiness is the same as form, then it IS form and -- oh shit! And I saw that my "spiritual" identity had just died.

shargrol wrote: And then it hit me, if emptiness is the same as form, then it IS form and -- oh shit! And I saw that my "spiritual" identity had just died.

Is this a philosophical insite or was it an experiential change in how you perceive things? If the latter can you give us a before and after description?

Chris Marti wrote: My first deep experience of the non-dual came at a seemingly random time, induced by who-knows-what. The same could be said of the dropping away of the self-sense and the realization that all phenomena are the same, what I call the non-hierarchical nature of reality, when it hit with real force. In some oddly serendipitous or coincidental way both of those experiences happened while I was riding in an airplane staring out the window.

Is it similar to what Chris calls "non-hierarchical nature of reality"?

Is this a philosophical insite or was it an experiential change in how you perceive things? If the latter can you give us a before and after description?

Using your terms it would be closer to a "philosophical" insight. The key thing is the meaning of experience changed. This sounds lame, but the meaning of experience is finally seen "as experience". I don't want to say "just" because that's a value judgement, simply "experience". Self is an experience, no self is an experience, seeking is an experience, being done is an experience. Jhanas and nanas are experience, that's why they don't mean more than they do and they can still happen after awakening if your mind is wired that way. Awakening to things as they are. As it is. The only way these things have experientially changed, if anything, is they don't "lead onward" as much.

My experience was wanting to say oh fuck! because my project was over. No medal, no scroll, just over. A friend of mind felt his back turn cold and had the thought "nothing else is going to happen".

www.huffingtonpost.com/ken-mcleod/what-i...enment_b_960127.html

For what it's worth, one thing that seems to allow resistances to complete themselves is a practice like this (which is slightly different than what I was taught, but worked for my friend):
* spend 20 minutes getting bodily settled, getting mind more and more inclusive of experience (eyes open)
* then holding the field of awareness in one's heart/mind ask "what is wrong?", "what is missing?" "what is needed?" "what is incomplete?" (or whatever seems right to you).
* chances are you will feel some very intimate resistances, feelings of inadequacy, failure, doubt, no hope...
* edit: but you can also feel joy, love, hope, happiness, simplicity, metta, equanimity, ambition...
* include those sensations, too. hold all of it in experience... and ask again.
*do the above for 10 minutes max... and then sit for another 10 minutes, just relaxing and integrating.
* most importantly: BE KIND TO YOURSELF. this stuff makes us viscerally twitchy and if we take it personally it makes us raw, so we need to give ourselves plenty of space and comfort to counterbalance. Being outside and just pondering the sky or lazily walking, taking bubble baths, that sort of thing is called for here.

This practice is so simple and can be so subtly brutal, too. All the creepy primal reactive chains will be exposed (which is what we want, but still it's not a "natural" feeling). I really valued having a teacher and peer group during this work. I also resolved to see through to the end as quicky as possible for the least suffering of myself and those around me. I didn't want to become entrenched as a dark night third path yogi. You can imagine that something like this could go on for ever... but really, once primal subtle resistance is simply seen as primal subtle resistance (and not interpreted as signs of a giant monster under the bed), then the heart/mind wants to be done and it goes quickly.

Hope that helps.Sending you all the good mojo and love I got.