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Self-Transcendence via New Scientist

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3 years 6 months ago - 3 years 6 months ago #115783 by Chris Marti
Ran across this article in New Scientist just now and thought it was a nice take on the value of "not-self" (they call it "self-transcendence") as a way of being less anxious, less tense, happier, and more kind:

www.newscientist.com/article/mg25333760-...ost-your-well-being/  


A FEW years ago, psychiatrist  Roland Griffiths  published the results of some intriguing work with people facing imminent death. His team wanted to see if it was possible to reduce  anxiety  and  depression in people diagnosed with terminal cancer  by inducing an intense self-transcendent experience, in which a person’s  sense of self temporarily falls away .Fifty-one people received two doses of the psychedelic  psilocybin , previously shown experimentally by Griffiths and others to reliably induce what they call “mystical-type” experiences. Five weeks after the first dose,  63 per cent of them had a clinically significant reduction in depression symptoms  and 51 per cent saw a reduction in anxiety symptoms. Five months later, many still had fewer symptoms. Frederick Barrett , part of Griffiths’s team at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland, says it isn’t clear that the therapeutic effect was entirely down to the transcendent experience. But “a lot of people believe that is the case”, he adds, “and I’m one of them”.If he is right, it is a striking example of how self-transcendent experiences, though temporary, can provide a lasting boost to well-being. And they don’t have to be the intense experiences induced by  psychedelics . Just staring in awe at magnificent trees or concentrating intensely on a challenging task also seem to have the capacity to make you  happier , less stressed and kinder to others.Now, some researchers are developing brain stimulation techniques that could induce self-transcendence, or at least accelerate the positive effects of mindfulness and meditation. So, should we all be seeking to lose ourselves more often? And if so, what is the best way to do it?

Self-transcendence is nothing new.  Religious rituals and other cultural practices aiming to induce it have been part of the human experience throughout recorded history , and probably before. As something approaching a scientific discipline, however, the idea can be traced to 19th-century psychologist William James, who did experiments on himself to induce self-transcendent states. “We can experience union with something larger than ourselves and in that union find our greatest peace,” he wrote.Our understanding of the phenomenon has come on a bit since then. In a 2017  paper outlining different kinds of self-transcendent experience David Yaden , a psychologist also at Johns Hopkins, defined them as “transient mental states of decreased self-salience and increased feelings of connectedness” – those moments when self-referential thoughts fade away such that you feel deeply at one with other people or your surroundings. Astronauts gazing back at Earth from outer space, for example, report feeling overwhelming emotion and a deep sense of oneness with humankind. Others report similar experiences during religious awakenings, near-death experiences, supernatural encounters, or the birth of a child.“There is ample evidence from clinical psychology that excessive self-focus can have negative effects”But as Yaden makes clear, self-transcendent experiences exist on a spectrum of intensity: there are the most intense episodes, when your sense of self dissolves entirely, and there are less-intense versions such as the  awe you feel when immersed in nature or the peace and feelings of well-being people report during mindfulness meditation .In pretty much every case, these experiences appear to be good for us. A series of studies published in 2015, for instance, found that people exposed to awe-inducing stimuli such as towering Tasmanian eucalyptus trees or sweeping panoramic videos of mountains and forests were  significantly more likely to report feeling less self-centred and to act more generously in a simulation than those exposed to control stimuli that didn’t induce awe .At the other end of the spectrum are the overwhelming feelings of transcendence induced in Griffiths’s study on mystical experiences, in which 18 healthy adults were administered a placebo or varying doses of psilocybin. The proportion of participants who reported having a mystical experience was greater among those who received the psychedelic and even more so among those who got a higher dose. That much you might expect. What is perhaps surprising is that  those who received psilocybin reported improved mood and more positive attitudes and behaviours , and that those benefits persisted for 14 months after receiving the drug.

Thinking of you

What makes self-transcendent experiences so beneficial? At first blush, you might think it would be unsettling, even terrifying, to suddenly lose your sense of self. Indeed, many people report that intense transcendent experiences are “psychologically challenging and difficult”, according to Yaden. For that reason, clinical trials aimed at inducing these states are done under close supervision. But there is ample evidence from clinical psychology to demonstrate that excessive self-focus can have negative effects – it is a hallmark of depression, for instance – which could explain why reducing that focus, even temporarily, can be helpful.

We have also learned a bit about what happens in the brain during self-transcendence. Imaging studies have repeatedly captured activation of the frontal lobe, part of the brain involved in attention and emotion, and reduced activity in the parietal lobe, which may be associated with the loss of the sense of self, says  Andrew Newberg , a neuroscientist at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital in Pennsylvania. The default mode network, an interconnected set of brain regions thought to be involved in imagination, daydreaming and perspective taking, also tends to be quietened during meditation and transcendent experiences. “It’s probably a very complex set of interactions that are occurring and, to some extent, that can’t be a surprise because of the sort of richness and diversity of these experiences,” says Newberg.

Whatever is going on inside our brains, the evidence suggests that we might all benefit from losing ourselves more often. For most people, psychedelics aren’t really an option. There is an ongoing revolution in their use for clinical therapy. In recent years, trials have demonstrated that drugs including MDMA, LSD and psilocybin can successfully reduce symptoms from a range of disorders from major depressive disorder and anxiety to chronic pain and post-traumatic stress disorder. However, while psychedelics induce intense transcendence more reliably than anything else, they remain illegal for recreational use in most countries.“

The goal with transcranial focused ultrasound is to boost the positive effects of meditation”


Fortunately, there are other options. For low-intensity transcendent experiences, you can seek awe in nature. Or you can find activities that put you into a flow state, in which you become “completely absorbed in a highly rewarding activity”, says  Richard Huskey at the University of California , Davis. Over the years, studies have shown that experiencing flow can variously help to  prevent work-related depression and burnout build resilience and improve well-being . A 2020 study on people being quarantined due to covid-19, for instance, found that those who engaged in activities that induced a flow state had  significantly improved well-being compared with those who didn’t experience flow .

Huskey says early work suggests flow leads to increased activity in brain regions involved in focus and decreased activation of brain regions associated with self-referential thinking and negative intrusive thoughts. “One potential reason flow might be useful for experiencing well-being is it can distract us from difficult things,” he says. “It essentially refocuses our attention away from negative thoughts and focuses them instead on something that’s intrinsically rewarding.” Or perhaps a flow state simply injects periods of “really intensely rewarding, intensely gratifying experiences” into our everyday life, he says, which in turn translates into higher levels of overall well-being.

What we know is that people induce a flow state by engaging in activities in which they are highly skilled, but that are also challenging. Helpfully, people are generally pretty accurate at guessing what might bring on this state, says Huskey. “I can make a good inference that I’m probably not going to flow when snowboarding down a really easy run on the mountain, but I might feel it on a more difficult run.”

However, all such transcendent experiences, from flow states to mystical episodes induced by psychedelic drugs, are fleeting. Surely it would be better for us to get longer-lasting, or at least more habitual, self-transcendence. That brings us to  mindfulness , typically defined as paying attention, on purpose, to the present moment.

For  Jay Sanguinetti , a neuroscientist at the University of Arizona Center for Consciousness Studies, mindfulness may actually be a longer-term mental state. He views it as a sort of default state formed by habitual daily experiences and emotional responses. All day your brain is processing information and deciding how to act and respond, he says. “Sometimes that default state can tip into negative emotion, that’s depression. It can tip into anxiety, that’s anxiety disorder. So some people’s default state can become a problem.” Part of mindfulness training, he says, is to habitually change your thought processes about your body and the world around you so that default experience shifts towards a happier and more-balanced state of mind.

One mindfulness-based practice, known as equanimity training, involves viewing a series of emotionally triggering images. Participants track their response to each image, and if the response is negative, seek to redirect their attention to the task of viewing images. “That is changing how you’re emotionally present in the world, and people tend to feel better because they’re letting go of their triggers,” says Sanguinetti. In these days of pandemic and climate crisis, he adds, the ability to resist the sense of threat such scenarios pose may allow people to feel better on a day-to-day basis.

The problem is that when it comes to mindfulness, as with other forms of meditation, it can take years to perfect the techniques and get all the benefits. For instance, one study found that people who had practised meditation for at least three years had less reaction in the amygdala, a brain structure involved in our experience of emotion, when viewing happy or positive pictures compared with people who didn’t meditate. However,  amygdala reactivity to negative pictures was only reduced in long-term meditators , those who had been practising for at least 10 years. The researchers concluded that prolonged meditation practice was required to fully regulate amygdala response to external stimuli. Another study found that  decades of meditation can cause a thickening of parts of the brain associated with attention , interoception (your bodily sensations) and sensory processing.

In any case, self-transcendence through meditation is often only achieved by expert practitioners who have spent decades practising this. But there has been a push to see if the benefits of mindfulness and meditation can somehow be accelerated. In 2007, the Dalai Lama spoke about these challenges during a talk at the annual Society for Neuroscience conference in Washington DC. He asked the researchers in attendance to develop an intervention that could accelerate the path to transcendence so that he could spend less time meditating – and more people could enjoy the benefits.

Sanguinetti, who was in the audience that day, set out to do just that. Working with the meditation teacher  Shinzen Young , he pioneered a technique that involves targeting specific parts of the brain such as the right inferior frontal gyrus, an area implicated in mood and emotional regulation, with ultrasonic sound waves. The duo’s goal with the technique, now called transcranial focused ultrasound, is to boost the positive effects of meditation so that they could be more impactful faster.

Brain stimulation

The technology is still in its infancy, and yet the first studies are promising. In a randomised, double-blind controlled trial run by Sanguinetti, 48 participants received either a placebo or 30 seconds of transcranial focused ultrasound. The 24 people who received the stimulation reported  significantly improved mood 20 and 30 minutes afterwards . In a second experiment, researchers carried out functional MRI scans to assess changes in brain activity before and after people underwent 2 minutes of the brain stimulation. They found  significant changes in functional connectivity between different brain regions and notably decreased activity in the default mode network .

Something similar is also being mooted for the flow state. A 2019 study demonstrated that transcranial direct current stimulation, or TDCS, which uses small pulses of electricity rather than ultrasonic waves,  helped induce flow in 32 participants playing video games . “If you apply this TDCS to medial parts of human participants’ brain, parts of the brain associated with, say, self-referential processing, it seems to have a causal impact on people’s ability to experience flow,” says Huskey. He urges caution, however, as this is the only study he knows of that has assessed an application of this technology to induce a flow state.

Sanguinetti similarly says there is a long way to go before we can stimulate the brain into transcendent states. He says his device is designed to accelerate and enhance mindfulness training, rather than induce self-transcendence. But he is bullish about the potential of such interventions. “I do really see the psychedelic science, the contemplative science and the neurotechnology movement, which is what I’m also part of, as creating interventions that help people get on the path to happiness,” he says.

The truth is that you might never experience self-transcendence, no matter how magnificent the view you are enjoying, how focused you are on something, or how much time you commit to perfecting meditation. But ultimately that isn’t a problem, according to Yaden, who argues that when it comes to improving well-being, self-transcendence doesn’t necessarily have to be the end goal.“Practising meditation has a lot of benefits aside from a self-transcendent experience, and while a self-transcendent experience may come, and that is usually beneficial, I don’t think that should be the aim of someone engaging in the practice,” he says. “Rather than going out and trying to seek a mental state, specifically engage in things that are valued and virtuous activities.” Of course, if you find that you lose yourself for a moment, then all the better.

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Last edit: 3 years 6 months ago by Chris Marti.
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3 years 6 months ago #115784 by Chris Marti
So... science is getting interested in meditative states, their usefulness, and value. In the process science is doing what science tends to do - figure out shortcuts based on technology.

Does it matter?
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3 years 6 months ago #115874 by Chris Marti
Well, I tried.

:)
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3 years 6 months ago #115877 by Tom Otvos
Yes, it matters if the shortcuts improve accessibility into a (presumably) more useful way of living.

-- tomo
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3 years 6 months ago - 3 years 6 months ago #115880 by Anonymous1245
I see the ethical question of if it matters that people achieve a certain perspective through a committed meditation practice vs. just taking drugs and getting your brain zapped, and also wonder if the result is actually the same. 

Ethical type questions that come up in my mind are:
  • innate meditation talent does not seem to be uniform across people, some are more gifted than others, everyone has different wiring and brains are complex things that we don't fully understand.
  • If science can provide someone who wants an awakening to get an awakening I am all for it  
  • people who have been meditating for 20 years and are still in dukkha should use the tools at our disposal
  • if that's what they want to spend their money on... whoops!
Then you start to think well that's kind of going down an ethical rabbit hole because it begs the question
  • is being awake better than being asleep?
Maybe society only needs a certain percentage of awake people. Who gets to be awake? When you commoditize it and make it into something that can be bought I don't know what would happen. And you need your fair share of sociopaths to run the corporations too and you need lawyers.. (oops!) 

Who gets to decide who's awake? And since this whole thing involves the sense of self, what kind ethical weirdness might happen? Those are some things that come to mind for me. If we could just zap people awake would we want to just line everyone up on a conveyor belt and zap them one by one, or would you zap some and not others, and what percentage of people would you zap if not 100%? 

And maybe who knows in the future we may come to understand the process of awakening and we can line people up in the awakening machine and we can overcome all the stress arising from a misunderstanding of the nature of selfhood. 

Does dukkha have a functional purpose? What if no one ever suffered? What kind of world would that look like? This is a rabbit hole type of question. 
Last edit: 3 years 6 months ago by Anonymous1245.
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3 years 6 months ago #115882 by Chris Marti
I wonder if there isn't a bifurcation of responses to be had - those who have gone through the practice and emerged on some other side (we could call this awakening) and those who have yet to do so? If someone had asked me this question fifteen years ago I would have given the answer Tom gave up-thread, and said however we can get there, we get there. So the answer to my original question is, I think, conditional depending on where one is right now. I would not begrudge anyone for seeking, and taking, a technology-assisted path. I don't find any ethical or moral problems related to this way of getting past "Go." The more the merrier!

As to whether it would be the same awakening - who knows? Who can say any awakening is the same as any other? The result may be determined our biology/neurology anyway. So... let's hope we get to study this one day and find out.
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3 years 6 months ago - 3 years 6 months ago #115883 by Chris Marti

Does dukkha have a functional purpose? What if no one ever suffered? What kind of world would that look like? This is a rabbit hole type of question. 

This causes me to ask - what is dukkha? I think the answers to these questions, however complicated, depend on our definition of dukkha. And, frankly, whether or not we experience it, or not, at any and all times.

My provisional answer is that dukkha is permanently part of the human condition. When we are able to see through the mirage of the subject/object duality (ignorance in the Buddhist sense) dukkha loosens its grasp on us - but does not disappear. For dukkha to disappear we'd have to be dead, or maybe under heavy general anesthesia. Every experience involves some form of dukkha.
Last edit: 3 years 6 months ago by Chris Marti.
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3 years 6 months ago - 3 years 6 months ago #115885 by Shargrol
If fear is seen as a lesson to be learned, the pain of self-deception is a teacher, truth becomes a guide, and love is a purpose... then there isn't really isn't dukka.

I suspect that dukka is there for giving us enough discomfort that we have to into our fears and realize our lessons, go into our self-deception to see what we're being taught, have to develop the habit of living truthfully so that we can have better problems, and become sensitive to goodness so that it holds more allure than momentary pettiness.

or something almost but not entirely completely different.
Last edit: 3 years 6 months ago by Shargrol.
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3 years 6 months ago #115887 by Chris Marti
Translation, please?

:)
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3 years 6 months ago - 3 years 6 months ago #115890 by Shargrol
we totally gotta suck, until we figure out how to be bitchin'  :)

basically, the inadequacies of our stage of adult development drives the next stage of development... until we understand the whole point of dukka is to spur us onward, we fight with it and it kicks our ass, but once we get it: dukka and me be mates.

or sumpthin'   :D
Last edit: 3 years 6 months ago by Shargrol.
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3 years 6 months ago #115894 by Chris Marti
So, as I read your replies, shargrol, I think you're saying that we need dukkha because it is motivating and provides signposts along the way.
 
 Yes? No?
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3 years 6 months ago #115895 by Ona Kiser

Tom Otvos wrote: Yes, it matters if the shortcuts improve accessibility into a (presumably) more useful way of living.


I don't think 'awakeness' has ever been advertised as making one's way of living more 'useful'. It is sometimes advertised as making one 'more comfortable' - and the article seems in part to be carrying that flag, as do some strands of pragmatic dharma, in which enough meditative insight can provide (one hopes) a near non-stop stream of happiness, well-being, optimism and good luck. But beer and cars are advertised that way, too. 

My current take is that we could really use some solid and available treatments for anxiety/panic disorder, which seems to afflict a great number of people I know, causing them and their loved ones a great deal of misery. Whether they also have some kind of awakening due to a medical treatment, I would think might be beneficial, though I can't be sure. It might just be disorienting. But natural awakenings are disorienting, too. 

And there are certainly many ways in which having had some sort of transcendent experience cheerfully boots the recipient into a variety of ugly places, such as the hell of arrogance and they trot off and start a cult or something (vaguely ref. Shargrol on Sigma's thread). I suspect that any awakenings that do occur - by whatever grace or mechanical or chemical encouragement - are only half the equation, as they flourish or die in the context of the individual who receives them, depending on the myriad complexities of the state of their soul, body and mind (ref. Jesus about the seeds falling in different kinds of soil). 
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3 years 6 months ago #115896 by Chris Marti
Western meditators tend to have a distorted expectation of their spirituality. I think that leads to some of the hardcore practices that pop up periodically, like Actualism. The idea behind those seems to me to be that extreme practices lead to extreme results. Kind of like the shamans the pre-awakened Buddha spent so much time with - the ones who practiced extreme self-denial of various sorts. Westerners tend to think in terms of linear causality, which may or may not apply to meditations and other spiritual practices, like prayer, dreams, vision quests, etc.
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3 years 6 months ago #115898 by Ona Kiser

Chris Marti wrote: Western meditators tend to have a distorted expectation of their spirituality. I think that leads to some of the hardcore practices that pop up periodically, like Actualism. The idea behind those seems to me to be that extreme practices lead to extreme results. Kind of like the shamans the pre-awakened Buddha spent so much time with - the ones who practiced extreme self-denial of various sorts. Westerners tend to think in terms of linear causality, which may or may not apply to meditations and other spiritual practices, like prayer, dreams, vision quests, etc.


Interesting points, Chris.
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3 years 6 months ago #115900 by Chris Marti
Thank you.

My experience with meditation is that it is a weird combination of systematic practice and serendipity. There are things we can learn to do in a linear/causal sort of way, like concentration states, and then there are things that just happen, like a lot of realizations. Maybe that's why we need to learn to open up to our experience and drop our expectations. Expectations can become barriers.
  • Anonymous1353
3 years 6 months ago #115902 by Anonymous1353
Replied by Anonymous1353 on topic Self-Transcendence via New Scientist
Ah yes that pesky "expectation" :D Don't we all know it too well!

The way I see it now is described by Adyashanti well and he says something like "we all have this dancer, and it wants to dance the dance, and is learning all sorts of dances and is dancing the dance, on and on and on and on, dancing and dancing until at one stage gets sick and tired of all this dance and gives up dancing. This is the time to awaken!" (or something like that).

It's impossible to drop expectation when just starting this journey as we have all sorts of ideas as to how to mingle with it and have all these things we can do to "get there" :D even during the journey, we get all sorts of experiences and insights which turn this into a hunt for more, and we dance the dance, on and on we keep dancing and dancing and we are actually good at it and we meditate every day and even get insights but somehow stuff is not really happening. Then at one stage some of us just get utterly sick and tired of this dancing and apply ourselves to the practice as if this practice is the beginning and the end and there will be nothing else there in the future. This is IT and we just stare at this as is, profound or mundane, we take it as the only thing we will ever "have". This is the time when stuff unfolds and blossoms. This when practicing bares fruits. When one gives up expectations :) 

Or I might be wrong! 
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3 years 6 months ago #115905 by Shargrol

Chris Marti wrote: So, as I read your replies, shargrol, I think you're saying that we need dukkha because it is motivating and provides signposts along the way.
 
 Yes? No?


Basically yes. 
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3 years 5 months ago #115938 by Tom Otvos

Chris Marti wrote: Western meditators tend to have a distorted expectation of their spirituality. I think that leads to some of the hardcore practices that pop up periodically, like Actualism. The idea behind those seems to me to be that extreme practices lead to extreme results. Kind of like the shamans the pre-awakened Buddha spent so much time with - the ones who practiced extreme self-denial of various sorts. Westerners tend to think in terms of linear causality, which may or may not apply to meditations and other spiritual practices, like prayer, dreams, vision quests, etc.


I would lump MCTB into a hardcore practice, and the outcome expectations that it offers leads to possibly unnecessary suffering by the practitioner. I still continually battle with the whole "is cessation a necessary condition for awakening" thing, or is it just some weird ascetic thing that misses the point.

-- tomo
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3 years 5 months ago - 3 years 5 months ago #115939 by Chris Marti
Hi, Tom.

MCTB the book suggests various long-standing Therevada practices like vipassana and samatha. Which of those practices would you consider hardcore, and why? I suspect we have a definitional difference on what "hardcore" means.
Last edit: 3 years 5 months ago by Chris Marti.
  • Anonymous1353
3 years 5 months ago #115942 by Anonymous1353
Replied by Anonymous1353 on topic Self-Transcendence via New Scientist
Let me share my experience in relation to "hardcore" :D 

Back in 2008 went totally hardcore into Reiki and Crystal healing. Bought so many effing crystals it's crazy! Now I gave them to my eldest son and Im teaching him their names. He loves how they look.
Anyway, I kept healing myself with reiki but could still feel suffering, so went on to find something else.

In 2009 found Aikido Ki-breathing and went full-on hardcore and this really developed into lovely states after a few months! Trouble came when I ended up in 5th Samatha Jhana (had no clue back then what that vast space was) and I tried to "get it out into off cushion life" but failed! Then I even lost it on a cushion! I went even more hardcore to get it back but then lost the other lovely states. Went to search for another method.

Found in 2010 Calm-abiding Shamatha which gave a strong insight; my thinking mind "falling away far into the background". Was a huge "wow, this thinking mind is not Me". Went all hardcore into it telling everyone to do this, the best method ever! Everybody should meditate!!! (This is the time I discovered the Watcher behind the eyes) This method developed pleasant mind states but I never thought of Jhana, only calming was of importance and just letting things be. 

Then in 2011, my practice went into pure shit! I could not get my pleasant mind states, had no clue what the fuck was happening. I was in panic!
A friend told me about Noting and Ingram and DN stuff. Sure thing I could see this might be the case. But I insisted to get my Shamatha back. Managed to climb into EQ but wanted desperately to stay there (hardcore) and of course, this very clinging catapulted me back into a very bad Re-observation. Kicked my ars so bad I stopped with meditation entirely in 2012!

In 2019 was sick and tired of trying to escape and ignore suffering so I decided to try this "hardcore" Noting. Did so and after 6 months of daily meditation, it resulted in cessation after a maddening Re-observation which felt like Im really going crazy but afterward felt so purifying and there was overall ease. This was the entrance into EQ Nana. Approx 4-5 weeks later cessation happened off the cushion. 

"Hardcore" is my middle name.
Or maybe it "was" my middle name and now Im observing more the half-arsed mind :D 

I certainly use Noting these days to ground the mind-experience if it goes haywire and bad stuff starts to bleed out on others around me. But it also causes mind to go into Jhana states for some reason. In this instance its not really hard core but applied as needed. Like medic would do :D 

I think Noting might work better for those who have already had an A&P Event in their life prior to all meditation stuff. In my case I have seen the Universe and could feel the entire volume of this Planet Earth! Red lines connecting all living beings and shooting into the universe! It was in the middle of the day, I was not using anything, totally normal (I was crazy in love then).

Being passed the A&P can prove easier to start using the Noting apparatus! I can imagine how those who didn't have an A&P event must plow through the first 3 Nanas to break over into the "point of no return". 
Im sure these first 3 happened to me too but likely was more fluid to "see through them" and keep going up the insight hill. 

Dunno :D I might be talking gibberish here! Any way, for the sake of this conversation and in hope it of some benefit I will press now "Submit"
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3 years 5 months ago #115943 by Anonymous1245
I think dharma is commercialized. Spiritual goods are not for sale unfortunately. This whole science of enlightenment thing gives me the creeps. I don't know about anyone else, but any spiritual gains i think I've gotten has been paid for with a tax of suffering. Like Shargrol said, dukkha is the motivator. First noble truth of existence. Not a hot sell. Maybe these are what "hardcore" practices are. Do people honestly think they will wake up in comfort? Do people honestly think you can just zap your brain and that will have the same effects as a years-long meditation practice? I'm skeptical. 
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3 years 5 months ago #115945 by Ona Kiser
Dusko said: "Hardcore" is my middle name.
Or maybe it "was" my middle name and now Im observing more the half-arsed mind   

:D :D :D
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3 years 5 months ago #115947 by Chris Marti

Do people honestly think you can just zap your brain and that will have the same effects as a years-long meditation practice? I'm skeptical. 

Maybe we'll find out someday that the difference between doing a spiritual practice the old-fashioned way and using a technical shortcut is like the difference between having to contract and survive measles vs getting the measles vaccination. Both paths get you the same immunity but the former is much harder and less safe.
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3 years 5 months ago #115948 by Ona Kiser
Even religious practices are often full of encouraging 'shortcuts', like "this technique" or "this saint" or "this devotion" or "this guru"  - and so many stories of miraculous instantaneous awakenings. I've heard them in a variety of religions. And it can happen that people are profoundly awake from early in life, or after little practice, and others practice for years and make little progress. So the mind-zapping-technique will probably just fall into the same continuum. 
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3 years 5 months ago - 3 years 5 months ago #115950 by Chris Marti
Some time ago I held the opposite opinion. If I had to practice my way through, spending years in meditation and suffering from its difficult effects, why shouldn't everybody? I've changed my opinion about this over the last ten years. I will always believe that awakening is precious and enormously valuable, but how people awaken is irrelevant. If it can be done in less time and with less suffering, I see that as a good thing. Why should I deny someone that if it's available to them? That denial would be a violation of the values stemming from my own path - compassion, most importantly. And, as Ona correctly just stated, there are people who awaken spontaneously - should we deny them, too?
Last edit: 3 years 5 months ago by Chris Marti.
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