Looking for some advice on retreats

Hey everyone,

Long time, no talk! So I'm looking to do a ten-day (totally INTENSE!!!!) retreat this year but I face all the usual time/monetary constraints that we all do, so I wanted to ask for peoples' thoughts on things.

Out in my neck of the woods the most affordable retreat options are a Goenka centre and an Ajahn Chah-lineage monastery. The upsides to each is that they are completely by donation and will accommodate ten-day retreats. A further upside to the Goenka centre would be the boot-camp element, while one can basically hang out and do whatever one wants at the Chah monastery. The downside is that they each have their own practices and discourage Mahasi style pursuits (particularly the Chah monastery). Now, I could just do my own thing - how would they know? - but I would feel slightly 1) dishonest about this and 2) if I ran into trouble and had to seek help... etc. I know I could just follow their instructions, but I would like to use the ones I use daily.

Mahasi style is available locally, but seems all to be shorter retreats (the longest is one week) and mostly are EXPENSIVE! So there's that.

There is a third option, which is a cabin my family owns on a rural island around here where I could stay for free (except food, of course, gotta eat!) and practice precisely how I want completely alone. This, of course, strikes me as totally awesome but would require more self-discipline and, again, should I start hitting difficult stages, etc. Would this be foolhardy or poorly advised (since guidance is good, of course)? Or could I arrange some instruction materials ahead of time to take with and sort of be my teacher while I'm on the retreat? Has any one else done solitary retreat?

Thanks ahead for your thoughts/suggestions, if any?

I would go to the Goenka and do my own thing. Been to two myself and never gone to an interview there anyway. Not much hope to get guidance from their teacher's.

Or maybe if you really want guidance you could arrange with some dharma teacher to help you over skype and be disciplined by your self in the cabin.

Me personally I feel that the boot camp at Goenka is most beneficial for a boot camp practice like mahashi. It takes a lot to follow something like that on your own. Done two similar length retreat's by myself as well and I never slept as few hours or pushed through the pain like at Goenka or the one organized Mahashi I've been to.

My two cents

Metta Erik

How much experience do you have? Are you pre A+P? Are you post A+P but pre 1st Path? Are you post 1st Path?

My first retreat was a ten-day at a Goenka center. I cannot recommend it enough. 3 days of samatha, the rest vipassana via the scannning technique. My concentration built up to incredibly strong levels, I shot through the A+P, spent two days in Dark Night, then was getting Equanimity for the rest of the retreat. Before the retreat I'd never crossed the A+P. The first real progress I ever made was at the Goenka retreat.

And don't totally discount scanning! It is a great and fast way to get you past the A+P, up to Equanimity, and to build concentration. To this day, and as a result of the retreat, I start with scanning until my concentration builds and I get up to Equanimity, and then I switch to either choiceless awareness or noting [about one note every 5-7 seconds].

The food is really good, the accommodations were good as well. It was very structured so you will have no choice but to make progress if you apply the technique. The vow of silence is very helpful. And, of course, the price is right! 100% free, unless you choose to make a donation, but it is real low pressure.

I credit the Goenka 10-day with getting my practice off the ground. In fact, next month I'm going on a 3-day at a Goenka center, and then in June I'm going another 10-day, and will hopefully get stream [if I haven't beforehand].

Whether or not to do a solo retreat depends on you and your current progress. If you are far along the path, then a solo retreat might be possible if you are very disciplined. But if you are still in nans 1-4, then I really recommend you go to something structured, where you are basically forced to sit and sit for certain periods of time. Going on a 10-day Goenka retreat you will get more cushion time than a college student gets classroom time during an entire semester.

Hi guys,

I do have the feeling the bootcamp would be not a bad idea. It would certainly avoid the troubles associated with self-motivation!

Alan: I suppose that would have been useful information! Definitely pre-first path. As for the A&P, I had a conversation with Kenneth about an experience I had before I was checking in with teachers or this community (solo meditation) and he said that it sounded like it might have been an A&P event. That was a couple of years ago now, mind you, and I certainly haven't had anything even closely resembling it lately. I gave a description of it here: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/50.../New+here+-+Hello%21 (entry number four). At any rate, if Goenka's method is reliable at blasting people past the A&P then that's probably what I should do. My concern with the Goenka method is that I've heard it discourages noting mind states, volitional states, etc., which seems wrong somehow - or do I have a wrong understanding of it? Pehaps scanning can be combined with investigation of those things too?

The deal with scanning as a method is that it gets you focusing on the sensation in the body while being aware of the 3 characteristics, particularly anicca. What you are doing is "noticing" sensations without actually "noting" [labeling] them.

The reason that scanning is really good at getting one through the A+P is because your focus is very tight and limited. It builds up the concentration mojo nicely. It was my experience initially that when I tried to do noting, I never really built up the momentum or concentration in order to start really feeling the sensations arise and pass away, and thus I never passed the A+P, and always wondered what I was doing wrong.

With scanning, you are paying very close attention to the very sensations you want to see arise and pass, and it wakes them up in a kinda way. Now I am able to get through the A+P in my daily sits with either scanning or noting, but scanning does it faster for me.

Yes, there is NO emphasis put on noting [labeling], nor is there emphasis put on noticing mind states [at least in the 10-day]. But think of the Goenka retreat as a pass-the-a+p-and-get-through-the-dukka-nanas bootcamp. The scanning technique is 100% tried and true vipassana from the Burmese tradition. They don't, however, mention the maps, but do end the retreat talking about a stage which I believe is dissolution.

What you can do, though, is start practicing noting now, and get familiar with the technique, and then when you are on retreat, note whenever you are off the cushion, ever second possible, for example when you are walking, eating, showering, etc.

Also, once you learn the scanning method and make some initial progress [pass the A+P and start being able to do it regularly in your every sit], you can modify your technique. The truth of the matter is that most meditators use a mix of techniques. For instance, even hardcore noters sometimes drop noting when they get into Equanimity territory for choiceless awareness.

The real skill and art of meditating is doing what you need to do in order to get through a particular set of nanas. This might mean scanning for part, noting for another part, and then using choiceless awareness for another [which is what I do]. Or it might mean noting more limited spaces and then widening out to note bigger spaces.

Also, here is the thing: once you get really concentrated and your mindfulness improves and work you way up the nanas, you are "thinking" less anyway. Most "thought" is probably located most in the first 3 nanas, and scanning gets you out of the territory fast. So, if you are in a really concentrated Equanimity, it is not like you are going to have a whole lot of thoughts which pop in your mind. Subtle ones, but less and less "distracting" thoughts.

You can also insert noting into your Goenka scanning technique in the following way: when scanning the body for sensations, if a distracting through appears, then "note" it until it goes away. In this way you won't be ignoring mindstates.

At a certain part of my first retreat I intuitively started feeling myself getting into Equanimity territory: my focus became wider, more panaramic, more diffuse, and I felt more inclined to pay attention to the horizon, so to speak, meaning, the field of awareness. At that point I just started using choiceless awareness, since you can't really "scan" something like a mind state.

I had my doubts before going on my first Goenka as well. I wanted to learn noting because that is what Master the Core Teachings of the Buddha talks about. I had the opportunity to Skype with Daniel Ingram and I asked him his advice for my first Goenka retreat and it was: Follow the instructions exactly and preciously. It was good advice. I made my first serious progress and not I meditate twice a day for about 3 hours a day. I learned a lot on the retreat.

My advice is make some initial progress. Gain some confidence. Get through those initial stages. Be trained in a tried and true technique [scanning]. See how powerful your concentration will get after 10 days of meditation. Get a butt-ton of cushion time in. After all this, you can continue to use scanning, switch for noting, use a combo, or whatever.

Thanks for all the input Alan! It has been really helpful, actually. I was talking with another couple of people I know and they also recommended going to the Goenka and giving it a shot (but being very clear that, whatever I do, I must not switch between techniques, else I shall make no progress). So I will give it a go (and practise noting if I am doing any walking meditation)! I really like the idea of a "pass-the-a+p-and-get-through-the-dukkha-nanas bootcamp" and hope that I will manage to be successful in doing so - at the very least, getting past the A&P. I've signed up for one in May and am waiting to hear back from them if I can fit in!

Any suggestions leading up to it that you would recommend as preparations (besides getting accustomed to sitting for longer and longer periods)?

I had extremely limited expectations when I went to my first 10-day this summer. My biggest goal was to pass the A+P.

You start the retreat by doing nothing but anapana meditation [focusing on the sensation of the breath, as it enters and exits the nostrils, so as to build up concentration]. By the middle of the 3rd day my concentration had become very strong. I was getting throbbing at the 3rd eye chakra, sensations of squeezing at the temples, a feeling like wet clay was on my head. At one point my leg was hurting so I decided to switch my focus from my breath to the sensations in my leg, with attention to the impermanent nature of the sensations ["cause they were hurting!"], and all of a sudden there was some flashing, and a gentle sensation of rising, and I got hit with a bliss wave, and voila!, I'd passed the A+P.

The most amazing thing is how strong your concentration gets. Wherever I focused my attention I could feel subtle sensations on my body: feelings of pulsing, fizzing, crackling, etc. On day 4, when we did vipassana for the first time, we had to sit for an hour and a half without moving. My leg was killing, but in the course of the guided vipassana meditation I stopped being concerned with it. By the end of the meditation I was in High Equanimity.

I was amazed. I never thought I'd ever make that much progress on my first retreat. My expectations had been so low, and I'd blown past them. My concentration was so strong it amazed me.

I went to bed and when I woke up the next morning my powers of concentration felt like they'd disappeared. I thought, mistakenly, that once you'd passed the A+P that you forever started with the A+P as a new baseline, so I was very disturbed when my new awesome powers seemed to have disappeared.

I spent the next few days upset. I thought that I'd imagined the whole thing, that I'd made no real progress, etc. Continue..

You never think "Oh, this must be the Dark Night nanas," you just thing "I suck, I've made no real progress, etc."

Then, after a few days of confusion and doubt, I noticed that during my sits I could sit longer and more comfortably, that my focus was wide, that I would finish a sit and notice that my leg was dead [whereby a few days earlier any leg pain would have irked me to no end]. I realized that I was in Equanimity territory, and getting it consistently.

I was further confused because I didn't feel a big A+P event during each sit. but what I later came to realize is that you sometimes have a big 1st time A+P event, but after that the A+P becomes much more subtle. I had a friend on the retreat with me who didn't think he'd passed the A+P, but when I later questioned him ["on your sits, would you feel gently tingling and pulsations on the skin, etc.?"] it was apparent that he had.

Two tips for your retreat: 1) You are told not to bring reading material, but I'd advise bringing Dan's book, and maybe some other notes if you have them. The Goenka people will provide no assistance with map related questions. Having some reference material can help you, especially when you hit Dark Night and start questioning all your progress, etc.; and 2) realize that the stages can be very subtle. There isn't a big sign for each stage. You may pass through them very quickly. You may not even notice some of the stages. The most obvious stages to look for are A+P [are you able to feel more subtle sensations on the body, like mass tingling and pulses, but still sometimes kinda subtle] and Equanimity [are you able to sit long periods comfortably, and does your focus become wide and panoramic]? I never noticed the first 3 nanas, and I never noticed the individual dark night nanas. Supposedly noticing the individual nanas becomes easier after 1st path.

"Any suggestions leading up to it that you would recommend as preparations (besides getting accustomed to sitting for longer and longer periods)?"

I went in without a daily practice. I suppose it is possible to get stream on a first retreat. The following advice is the classic. Read this: thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/11/...n-goenka-10-day.html

As is this: www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharm...eformedSlackersGuide

The 10-day is a good boot camp if you don't have a lot of experience. It will teach you some good techniques, it will give you a bunch of cushion time, it will get you through some of the states and stages, etc. It will kick off your practice really well. So there isn't a whole lot of prep needed, unless you already have an established practice and you are going to go for stream.

My biggest piece of advice is learn about Equanimity. The Goenka 10-day instructions have the power and potential to get you up to Equanimity. They did for me. But scanning isn't the best method for dealing with Equanimity once you get there. So learn a little bit about handling Equanimity in case you find yourself there. I guess the biggest advice for Equanimity is that, once your focus gets real wide and panoramic, switch to choiceless awareness in which you try to be aware of as many of the sensations taking place all at the same time [or light, slow noting {about one note every five or seven seconds}]. Don't strain, but don't slack. Just maintain mindfulness of everything which is taking place. Take it all in. Try to notice everything. In scanning you have a very tight, close, intense focus. With Equanimity, you need something wide and diffuse, all encompassing.