fr Jack: Mahamudra

"girag: Do you use the Ships in the Harbor technique?

jack."

Yes and no. I didn't know about Kenneth's specific version of it until fairly recently when it was posted on BG, but when I've tried it it feels very much like the kind of practice I have done often: that open listening/attentive resting plus including/allowing anything that comes up. It's not far from instruction my teacher gave me. I have used a reminder like "include it" or "allow it" or "surrender" to bring in the discomforts that might arise. I think it is quite a good technique for intermediate or advanced meditators (some beginners might find it too open and flexible and prefer something more structured to start, perhaps).

It seems like it's a good practice for folks who have a taste of calm, or a lot of calm, and who need to have a technique that keeps them from blissing out, spacing out, or dulling out.

I originally didn't like Mahamudra noting because I thought it was all about cultivating that calmness (which seemed like more blissing out and avoiding some aspects of the present, kinda like Metta practice but more vague). When Beth described that it was also about recognizing the negative sensations and fully allowing them too, then I really started liking the practice.

I recently added self-inquiry (what is experiencing this?) to my daily practice and found it very similar to my mahamudra practice. In mahamudra, I might start with my attention "outside", i.e., ships in the harbor. Then it shifts to stillness/emptiness and I rest there. In self-inquiry I start with my attention inside where I experience stillness/emptiness and rest there. No difference.

A few minutes ago I ended an hour meditation where I sometimes experienced at the same time every meditation I do daily. It was partner ping ponging noting, alone noting, samadhi, mahamudra and self-inquiry meditations all mixed together. We mute for 20 minutes in the middle and had a 15 minute silence at the end. Very new and interesting experience.

jack

I would appreciate some comments on my practice. Meditating 1 ½ to 2 hours daily. Morning session is noting. Evening is 15 minutes of samadhi followed by 20- 30 minutes of mahamudra/self inquiry (see my last post above)

Noting: I start off with KF style detailed noting then usually go to labeling everything as 'That'. Then I sometimes go to noticing without noting. The best way I can describe it as I touch whatever comes up with my mind. Touching something with my mind involves unconscious effort and energy. Lately this has changed to something different. My mind remains perfectly still and is still aware but there is no movement, effort or energy in this awareness. Is this what Ken McLeod means when he says, find where shamatha and vipassana meet and rest there?

Lately I have been investigating when my mind is involved in self-referencing attachment to something. I watch what is causing me to keep going back to that idea. Extremely interesting.

"I would appreciate some comments on my practice." -Jackha

Hi Jack,

The only comment that comes immediately to mind is that you have sensational practice, judging by the last two posts. Any thing in particular you have questions about?

Thanks for answering, Kenneth. I have been feeling I am out on my own lately with my practice and needed a little encouragement. I have connected with Ron C. to see where I fit in the 16 stages but he said I seem to be going through them but am not aware of them. Do you have anything to add to the thread about why some people don't manifest the stages and some do?

By the way, I have been doing ping ponging with Duncan first thing every morning for almost 2 years. That daily boost is a good way to start the day. Even when I don't feel liike meditating, I am forced into it. I learned this from you and it has jumped my practice ahead significantly. Thanks.

jack

"Noting: I start off with KF style detailed noting then usually go to labeling everything as 'That'. Then I sometimes go to noticing without noting. The best way I can describe it as I touch whatever comes up with my mind. Touching something with my mind involves unconscious effort and energy. Lately this has changed to something different. My mind remains perfectly still and is still aware but there is no movement, effort or energy in this awareness. "

Jack, can you describe this a bit more?

It sound very familiar -- lately I've been noticing this sort of thing come up for me for short periods occasionally during walking meditation. What I've noticed is that when this stillness comes up, intentionally reaching for and touching an object with the mind seem slow, heavy, takes effort, and is distracting. Conversely, remaining still feels light and joyful, but almost detached in a way. There also seems to be this uniformity about all sensations and thoughts. I'm not sure how else to describe it.

Does this seem similar?

"Do you have anything to add to the thread about why some people don't manifest the stages and some do?" -Jackha

My belief is that most advanced meditators have gone through the developmental process we call the Progress of Insight. But only those who were looking for it in real time would have spotted it. People from traditions that don't teach that model and people who are not predisposed by nature to see patterns in themselves over time would naturally not notice the process. It's also important to say that the Progress of Insight is a model (construct); it is a gross oversimplification and codification of an organic process that is unimaginably complex and individualized. Here is a great essay by Dave Pollard that stresses the difference between a construct and an organic process:

howtosavetheworld.ca/2012/09/18/why-we-cannot-save-the-world/

Even though we have all heard Alfred Korzybski's famous dictum "the map is not the territory," I think we in the pragmatic dharma community often get confused about this. We expect our experience to follow the model and sometimes we even suspect we might be doing it wrong when our experience seems to deviate from the model. We want to be validated by the model, and when our own development lines up nicely with the Progress of Insight, we sigh with relief and think "what a good yogi I am!" This is exactly backward, of course: it is the model that has something to prove. It is only a good model if it consistently predicts what will happen with many people and therefore shows itself to be a useful learning tool.

Is the Progress of Insight a good model? Generally speaking yes, but with a major caveat: it does not work for people who are not looking for it in real time, unless considerable effort is made after the fact to reconstruct the process, in which case "shoehorning" is likely.

(cont)

(cont from above)

Having said all that, your own practice is top notch, Jack. And the fact that you have noted aloud with Duncan every morning for almost two years fills me with admiration and inspiration. You and Duncan are awesome and I wish every yogi had that kind of dedication.

Beautiful explanation Kenneth!

Thank you, Russel.

By Jove, now I feel validated in not being a map-centric practitioner!

"Jack, can you describe this a bit more?

It sound very familiar -- lately I've been noticing this sort of thing come up for me for short periods occasionally during walking meditation. What I've noticed is that when this stillness comes up, intentionally reaching for and touching an object with the mind seem slow, heavy, takes effort, and is distracting. Conversely, remaining still feels light and joyful, but almost detached in a way. There also seems to be this uniformity about all sensations and thoughts. I'm not sure how else to describe it.

Does this seem similar?

"

Andy, I think we are talkinga about the same thing. I wouldn't use the words heavy, light or joyfull. It just is there without anything added. One thing I thought about is whether spatial position applies and it doesn't. Time doesn't seem to apply either.

jack

I have been taking Ken McLeod's phrase, look (vipassana) in the resting (samadhi) and rest in the looking, to the cushion. Another way he says it is, find where shamatha and vipassana meet and rest there. In the last week the hardest part was resting there. My mind lately wants so much to "do", to get back to the experience where I did rest there. I know this expectation I bring is not useful. Today I was just able to be aware of the expectation and be at peace with it. Something seems to be new at every sitting.

At the start of my evening sit, I usually set a time goal of 1 hour. Most every time lately I get restless at 1/2 hour and a force "makes" me get up and abort the rest of my meditation. I watch this restlessness and force but still get up. I would like to set a time for a meditation session whether it be 1 hour or 2 hours or whatever and be able to do it. Any words of wisdom here? My tactic so far is to accept it and not worry about it.

jack

You could always allow the impulse briefly by standing up, walking mindfully for a few minutes, stretching, and then sitting back down for the next 30 minutes...

I've rarely sat more than 30 minutes at a time, but I've often sat multiple 30 minute sessions in one day (up to 6, at times when I was rather driven). I found that each session tended to pick up where the last one left off, or to say a sort of momentum built through the sessions despite the breaks.

giragirasol, good advice. I will try it. I havve been thinking of something like this but was worried I would lose momentum.

jack

Two things:

(1) It may help to listen to this talk - www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/120105_Stren...ng_Concentration.mp3 - by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. In it he talks about concentration, not just as the ability to keep the mind on one object, but to keep yourself glued to a single purpose. If you're saying, "I'm going to sit for 60 mins," and it's not working, you're having trouble staying to your purpose. He suggests looking into the reasons why you're doing the practice in the first place, since a robust understanding of that makes it a lot easier to keep yourself glued to the task at hand.

(2) It's okay to put some pressure on yourself and say, "I want to get up, but I'm an adult, and I can do things I don't want to do." I'm not saying you're being childish; I'm saying it's a fine line between being a keen observer of all this Stuff and just being passive or impulsive. Every impulse is glorified in our culture, and we're supposed to make room for everything, but I think it's okay to give yourself the proverbial slap on the nose and say "STOP IT" or "STAY" -- assuming it works, which it sometimes does. This is helped a great deal, though, by doing #1 above, since it's harder to fully understand the goodness of something and not go after it.

Either way, please let us know what happens? Everyone has this problem at one time or another. Currently I'm dealing with constant sleepiness and disinterest, which is sort of the opposite problem. But I'm sure things will cycle around again, and at that time, the results of your own experiments will likely be useful to me. Best of luck.

apperception, thanks for the Thanissaro reference. I will listen to the talk tomorrow. The brute strength approach of trying to power through it doesn't feel right for me right now. Most of the reason is that all my meditations and especially mahamudra depend upon the opposite, a going with the current instead of trying to fight my way upstream. My meditation techniques are built upon awareness and acceptance. But, since I have the problem I am far from an expert on this. I would be interested in other's opinion.

By the way, I just finished an hour meditation that I broke into 2 30 minute segments with stretching and walking in between and it went well. I could have gone another hour or two.

jack

To add to my post above, I still get a minimum of 1 1/2 hours of meditation each day even with cutting my evening session to 1/2 hour. And yeah, I know some people would respond by saying this is more than enough. But, not for me at this point.

jack

Looking back on what some things I have accomplished - running marathons, running 400 m in masters track,, playing competitive tennis, playing jazz guitar (not so good at) and bluegrass banjo, being good in business and so on, in none of these did I have to force anything, swim against the current to continue this metaphor. (I hope no one takes this as bragging.) And there are other things that are very hard for me in which I have to swim against the current. In those things, I am very poor in and it has been mostly wasted effort.

jack

Don't be to hard on yourself the will power is by the ego mind wanting to achieve. This has it's place for sure but is completely opposite to what your aiming for in your mediation.

Just remember that I've read somewhere that some of the first lamas that taught in the west was puzzled by the seriousness of the western students. Don't be too serious.

Something that has worked for me regarding sitting time is to increase slowly. 30 to 35 to 40 ..... until you reach 1 h. Maybe you could combine this with giragirasols excellent advice of the pause in between and you will soon sit for 1 h.

Just my two cents

Metta
Erik

I have been thinking "resting" and "surrender" when I do MM meditation. A comment by Kenneth, "you don't have to do anything" struck a chord in me. I now can give up resting and surrender. Last week villum mentioned a Alan Chapman practice where he asks himself, how much effort is necessary for my awareness. It helped me notice that trying for awareness was another thing I could drop. Thanks Kenneth and villum.

jack

"I have been thinking "resting" and "surrender" when I do MM meditation. A comment by Kenneth, "you don't have to do anything" struck a chord in me. I now can give up resting and surrender. Last week villum mentioned a Alan Chapman practice where he asks himself, how much effort is necessary for my awareness. It helped me notice that trying for awareness was another thing I could drop. Thanks Kenneth and villum.

jack"

You may like this quote from Mahamudra master Lama Gendun Rinpoche:

"Whenever we lose our motivation, we should remind ourselves [that there is nothing to do or attain] and never have any doubts about our capacity to do nothing!"

I've certainly had the same problem of deciding whether or not to "fight" my way through sits. Having switched to the release & surrender model, I can tell you that I'm much freer now than I was before.

Your post earlier about having sailed through some things in life and been bogged down in others (those that you fought to accomplish) also very much strikes a chord with me. There have been a few things in life that I was outlandishly good at for the amount of effort I gave them. At times it almost feels like I'm trying to pay penance for the good life that those skills have earned me, by forcing discipline on myself. You can probably see the irony of this approach, trying to see through the ego by sheer will

So now my mottos are "short moments, many times" and "do nothing, and everything is done." They seem to fit me well. YMMV.

How do you pronounce Shikantaza. Is it she cant a za?

My evening sit is devoted to Do Nothing/just sitting/mahamudra meditation. But during the work day I wrestled with it. The Tao Te Ching says the perfect man does nothing but it all gets done. Not me. I just feel a strong pull to get up from my desk and go walk in the woods. When I have to do something I don't enjoy, I sometimes think I would be more productive if I was slightly neurotic.