Imaging the ideal Practical Dharma website/book?

Philip wrote: a cut and dried beginners book that explains what awakening is

Good luck with that job!

It was the gin talking, honest...

My reason fro not posting anymore is I really got to a point where I really don't have much else to say about practice. Plus 2 kids anchor attention in a very different direction with different energy expenditure and zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

This is really interesting topic!

It's hard to imagine a book that would suit as many people as possible in different stages of various practices. One important aspect might be setting up a clear cultural context from which the book is written. It gives the reader a chance to form a relationship to the written text and in a way "translate" it into her/his own way of thinking. Maybe this is obvious.

I really like the idea of a spiritual friend! I also appreciate your advice and style of interacting on this forum, Shargrol. It seems to me that no book can substitute interaction. Could there be an "Ask Shargrol" -webpage/application coming up?

Kalle Ylitalo wrote: Could there be an "Ask Shargrol" -webpage/application coming up?

That gets my vote!

(I think that webpage might already exist, called awakenetwork! )

For me a big impact was hearing Loch Kelly say: "Just normal human awakening, no big deal."

I just had a thought: that the question "does the world really need another dharma book" is only problematic if the initial assumption is that the book must say something new. Just having more dharma resources overall is simple more overall goodness.

Edit: Also, each new book or resource might have only one unique "angle" or contribution. So what is more important might be to create a "patchwork" of inspiring resources for oneself, and to help others do the same.

I am new to pragmatic dharma, and what Matthew says holds a lot of sense for me.

I've read half of MCTB and it does seem to be a powerful book in its message that awakening is possible for the individual. However the methods it speaks of to achieve awakening appear to be highly siloed. It seems that if you were able to enact your own awakening from that advice, the reality you'd have achieved is more of a glitch in the matrix or the product of an obscure chance that you were made for than the effects of a reliable, well designed practice.

I think a more effective pragmatic dharma book would be a closer examination of the underlying factors of enlightenment touched briefly earlier on in MCTB. A closer examination of the psychology, path and cultivation of those, since they are after all supposedly what the higher ends of practice in MCTB depend on. If you lack a reliable way to describe and inculcate those, then the farther reaches of pragmatic dharma may be better described as "pragmatic dogma"; not pragmatic dharma in any real sense for most people who would have occasion to read it.

I had a bit of a realization which I think might actual be the seed crystal for a book. While I believe in the utility of all the methods and maps, the single constant for my own life has been the investigation of ill will and purification. That's where my interest is. So I'm thinking that I can in many ways retell this stuff from that perspective... more a focus on suffering and the end of suffering than the focus on attainments and better attainments. And less intellectual and more experiential. Less life vs spirituality and more no-difference/just life. Probably with a "no big wow" aspect, too.

In many ways, I find personal accounts (rather than attempts to teach) to be the most rewarding. For example, that article I linked to on the other thread, where someone described the effects of a 14-day darkness retreat. Or the opening chapters of the Contemplative Fitness book, where Kenneth talks about his time with Bill Hamilton.

This topic continues to be one that SPUDS discusses frequently, given our newly formed zest, as well as the fact that multiple members are deeply technical folk with the know-how / resources to develop a cool pragdharm website. Seems serendipitous that this thread just popped back up

Geoff wrote: Seems serendipitous that this thread just popped back up

I thought so too. Reading the tea leaves...

shargrol wrote: I had a bit of a realization which I think might actual be the seed crystal for a book. While I believe in the utility of all the methods and maps, the single constant for my own life has been the investigation of ill will and purification. That's where my interest is. So I'm thinking that I can in many ways retell this stuff from that perspective... more a focus on suffering and the end of suffering than the focus on attainments and better attainments. And less intellectual and more experiential. Less life vs spirituality and more no-difference/just life. Probably with a "no big wow" aspect, too.

It’s interesting in that while I think there is no “ideal” practical dharma book (as we humans don’t come anywhere remotely close to being standardized), nevertheless a great many widely-scattered people can benefit from a unique take.

There is certainly a temporal aspect going on here as well – so much of dharma instruction, to me, has a “ships passing in the night” feel to it. You have to be at the right place in terms of your own timeline to really benefit from an instruction, and the source of that instruction is on an arc of their own. I can look back and see very clearly where I hitched my wagon at certain points in time and how that benefitted me, and when it was time to move on. Reggie Ray’s teachings were instrumental in me taking my ragged, fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants practice and grounding it in the body and in experience. When it began to appear obvious that from a practical standpoint, that sangha wasn’t going to get one close to what is actually attainable, MCTB somehow popped up. Kenneth’s teachings, back when he was teaching the 3-speed transmission and had an active website, were HUGE for me. Now I have trouble glomming on to much of what he is saying (or so I think. I was holding my two-week old daughter yesterday and looked at her and felt at my core ‘she’s not a thing, she’s part of a process!’).

And more recently, the advice and personal journals on this site have provided inestimable aid in dialing things back and “just sitting” through late third path territory.

Oddly, it all goes back to Reggie. I recall Tami Simon on her podcast describing how she was hemming and hawing to him about whether or not she wanted him to be her instructor and he said something to the effect that it didn’t matter. “….You will get the dharma you need”. High on the “woo woo” meter for sure, but something I’ve always found to be true in my own experience.

But I digress. What I meant to say is that I agree with Chris. Start writing -- people will certainly benefit!

All I want to say is... hurray for a two-week old daughter!!!! Congrats Jim!

shargrol wrote: All I want to say is... hurray for a two-week old daughter!!!! Congrats Jim!

Ha ha. Thanks friend! I don't mean to hijack your thread here -- I've meant to write about this experience over in my own log, but you know, sleep.........

Note to self... I think a good book/website would also speak to the whole spiritual cult thing, too.

Hello Shargrol and others,

I read the first questions in your thread. If you ever write a book I would definitely want to read it, just as I would want to read a finished version of 'Contemplative Fitness' and the book Ron is working on.

I have to say though that one of the unique features of the whole Pragmatic Dharma movement that have attracted me is the individualized teaching aspect: Doing Skype sessions with Kenneth Folk, Regular Skype back and forth noting with a friend (another student of Kenneth), reading practice logs and comments from advanced practitioners here and elsewhere, and getting comments on my own practice log in DhO recently by you, Shargrol (I'm Ben V on DhO), are all powerful teaching tools for me. Books are great, but for me these have been the main points.

That's my own experience anyway,

Benoit

Our Seattle group just established a standing Thursday work session for website creation. I'll post here once we launch the landing page/V1.

We'd like it to be a part/member of the awake network in terms of close association & links, but we'll be hosting on our own & designing our own content.

One of the main priorities is not to reinvent the wheel. There are lots of good pragmatic resources already in place so we'll just direct traffic accordingly.

The main difference of our site is we are looking to start grassroots in person sanghas in other cities, starting with LA & Portland.

Note: I don't mean to derail discussion about Shargrol's book. This just came spilling out this afternoon. Hopefully it adds to the discussion:

Wow! This thread has me excited. So much to comment on. I have a feeling that books like this seldom get finished, which is a shame, just as has been pointed out: It seems there's an initial desire of sharing what you've experienced, but that it dries up as you get further into your practice.

And, from what I've read in many other books, when the desire doesn't dissipate, and a book is finished, they can be very dry and not accessible helpful for the beginner.

From what I can gather things look very different from the perspective of someone who has experienced enlightenment, and while books written from that perspective are filled with deep truths, they're hard for a beginner to understand or appreciate. It seems every book on meditation can find itself trying to describe ice cream to someone who has never tasted it. A difficult task.

Likewise I think the market is flooded with beginner "meditation for relaxation" books. I personally don't believe it's ground that needs to be covered again.

What's more, I agree with the above points that a single perspective is very limiting, as everyone's journey is different, and we all need different nudges at different times.

That's why I've been mentally planning a book somewhere in between (everyone's planning a book - lol). I don't have Shargrol's knowledge, but I can see the problems, love to write, and have a strong idea.

Of course I felt I should probably get further with my practice before I made the presumption that I might have anything to add, but this topic has made me want to ask now, despite not having even experienced SE.

(Forgive me if this message is scatty; I'm on holiday, sitting by a swimming pool, typing this on my telephone. I would still be interested to know what you all think.)

Perhaps it might be used as a launching point for discussion... Obviously Shargrol's work would be something I would like to read, but here's what I had in mind.

It's probably very flawed, but it's what feel would be helpful for me (and to answer Chris's questions about "ideals", that's the best place I think anyone can come from -- the book they wanted to see themselves).

Anyway...

Given all the pitfalls noted above (some great points that I feel we're all aware of), I've been wondering how a book vould cover as many cases as possible, being a practical guide, while not shoving one person's opinion down everyone's throats. A "Mastering the Core Teachers of the Buddha: The Good Bits" or (reflecting my entry, and more seriously) "Mindfulness: The Missing Manual".

A book that could help as many people as possible who have found themselves past the "relaxation" phase, and who need guidance: A great teacher in lieu of a great teacher. The book I was searching for myself.

In my head it would follow the popularised 16 stage path (each stage would be represented by a chapter with a commonly accepted description of the the experiences, both on and off the cushion), but crucially it would include short accounts from different mediators describing their experiences of that stage.

Not only might it possible for students to recognise their own experience in the descriptiions, but it would help students realise how different our experiences can be in each stage. I would hope it would also help illustrate the common truths, and by doing so, paint a much clearer picture of what each stage is like -- instead or just one author's version.

For example, Ron has spoken about the "pitiful whining" he made during reobservation. His teacher told him it was common, but I didn't experience that. Reading another account closer to my own experience might have helped me, while also making me realise that differences are normal.

I've also thought about how each chapter title should have the different variations (in Pali etc,) to help students recognise the same thing can be called many different names, and aid in their own research. Each stage chapter would also include descriptions of common pitfalls for each stage, and things to look out for, too.

Finally, my plan would be to include a chapter on "Falling into the Pit of the Void". Not everyone experiences that, but as someone who did, there's plenty I wish I could have read that would have reduced my suffering.

So anyway, that's the book that's been floating around my head for the past few months. It's an idea pumped full of enthusiasm, but lacking in knowledge. I would very much like to hear thoughts on whether people think there's any merit in a book structured this way.