×

Notice

The forum is in read only mode.

The best meditation book you never read?

More
11 years 10 months ago #16849 by Shargrol
I've been thinking about the different ways to present a general overview of meditation. Some of David Chapman's writings ( meaningness.wordpress.com/ ) are provoking this thought --- along with two recent conversations with friends, both meditation dabblers, where I tried to quickly lay things out in a meaningful way.

Seems like the biggest missing piece in most writing is the curious nexus between meditation and psychology. They are neither the same nor very different. We're immersed in the psychological world view in western culture, so it seems like these need to be discussed and reconciled and teased apart appropriately.

Also most books don't spend much time going over the alternative metaphysical models used for meditation. It's a modern problem, but we're confronted by the marketplace of different "products" and we have to choose --- how does someone become a good consumer of meditation information? Most books are very brand-loyal, belonging to one tradition or another.

Lastly, I'm always interested in the "why" of things. I rarely hear an explaination of why meditation works.


Anyway, I'm curious if folks see other "big gaps" in what information is available for meditators. What would be in the the best book you've never read?
More
11 years 10 months ago #16850 by Chris Marti
Do I have to choose one book? That seems articifially constraining...
More
11 years 10 months ago #16851 by Shargrol
Ah, so another way of asking the question is: if you were to create a great book on meditation from the information found in other books, what would you put between two covers? In other words, what "pieces" of other books would be in your ideal anthology of meditation books?

I'm asking for specific components, not entire books. However, if the perfect book already exists, that's an answer too.
More
11 years 10 months ago #16852 by Chris Marti
Though I know what you're reaching for here, I have to be honest about this and say that I would prefer not to rely on the books, but the practice itself, which can be instructed and informed by books but not replaced by them. I know I'm not following the spirit of this topic, so I will offer up this in regard to reading books - I think we have to read a lot of them. There is no one or even a few that would satisfy this question.

Signed,

Unccoperative

:P
More
11 years 10 months ago #16853 by Laurel Carrington
Well, I'll cooperate and say that for me it's MCTB, hand's down.
More
11 years 10 months ago - 11 years 10 months ago #16855 by Chris Marti
MCTB, yes, absolutely. I would also add Only Don't Know, The Middle Length Discourses, The Blue Cliff Record and, without any qualm, Moon in a Dewdrop.
Last edit: 11 years 10 months ago by Chris Marti.
More
11 years 10 months ago #16857 by Chris Marti

I rarely hear an explanation of why meditation works.


I'm skeptical of anyone who claims to know why meditation works. Is there a book that could be said to be a good example of that?
More
11 years 10 months ago #16858 by Shargrol

Chris Marti wrote: MCTB, yes, absolutely. I would also add Only Don't Know, The Middle Length Discourses, The Blue Cliff Record and, without any qualm, Moon in a Dewdrop.


What do you find as essential in those books? Why did they make the short list?

I'm asking a meta-question, what theme is important, what category of information, what function are they performing?
More
11 years 10 months ago - 11 years 10 months ago #16859 by Chris Marti
Okay, here you go (and expecting something to come back in the way of other suggestions):

MCTB - the practice path I chose, the tactical "how to" guide
Only Don't Know - the way to approach the path, a method to use to keep the mind open, fresh, accepting
Middle Length Discourses - the history, the scripture, the underpinnings, the scope of Buddhism as it was, not as it is - contrast, I think
Blue Cliff Record - a way to help access the non-dual, the ground and not the figure, a way of testing myself, of seeing the other side of "this" coin
Moon in a Dewdrop - access to the poetry of Zen and awakened mind, and another way to test and to access "just this"

Hope that helps.
Last edit: 11 years 10 months ago by Chris Marti.
More
11 years 10 months ago #16863 by Ona Kiser
That's a good question. A couple times when a friend or acquaintance has expressed an interest in meditation, my husband has recommended Bhante G's book "Mindfulness in Plain English" as a good introduction. It's short, easy to understand, and gives some simple basic methods.

For people who are further along, I tend to recommend anything by Adyashanti, as he is fairly non-tradition-specific but very clear about the experiential side of awakening and the inquiry/surrender side of things. For those with a more mystical bent, I also like to recommend The Cloud of Unknowing, which even though it is a medieval Christian text is pretty accessible to non-Christians.

I think that writing a grand tome that covered everything (yet was pragmatic in focus) would be a bit challenging because everyone's stuff is so variable. It's not quite like baking a cake where you just follow the instructions in a rote way. Especially beyond the early stages people benefit from personal input quite a bit, I think. I tend to value working with a teacher over reading a book. But that's not for everyone.
More
11 years 10 months ago #16864 by Russell
I agree about Adyashanti. "The End of Your World" is awesome. This free PDF is more instruction based and very good. www.adyashanti.org/wayofliberation/
More
11 years 10 months ago #16865 by Chris Marti
I'm not sure everyone's stuff is all that variable. I think it might depend on who we work with, what we read and what we expect. Maybe to a larger extent than we tend to give credit for the message becomes the map becomes the path.
More
11 years 10 months ago - 11 years 10 months ago #16871 by Shargrol
Just a reminder --- the question I'm asking is both what and why.

So Russell... why do you agree? etc. etc.

edit: same thing Ona, why do you make those recommendations?
Last edit: 11 years 10 months ago by Shargrol.
More
11 years 10 months ago #16879 by Russell
OK, so I never read any book on meditation except for MCTB in the beginning of this journey. I have no background in this stuff other than pragmatic dharma. After stream entry it was suggested that I check out Adya so I did. And it resonated with me so much, but was said in a completely different (but universal) way than the pragmatic dharma movement. Even now when I hear him interviewed I am just blown away but they way he can deliver this stuff in a simple but effective way.

P.S. - I mostly read fiction :). Maybe I should start a thread on that.
More
11 years 10 months ago #16880 by Ona Kiser

Ona Kiser wrote: That's a good question. A couple times when a friend or acquaintance has expressed an interest in meditation, my husband has recommended Bhante G's book "Mindfulness in Plain English" as a good introduction. It's short, easy to understand, and gives some simple basic methods.

For people who are further along, I tend to recommend anything by Adyashanti, as he is fairly non-tradition-specific but very clear about the experiential side of awakening and the inquiry/surrender side of things.

For those with a more mystical bent, I also like to recommend The Cloud of Unknowing, which even though it is a medieval Christian text is pretty accessible to non-Christians.


So to try more detail:

Bhante G: a basic introduction to Buddhist style meditation, including preliminaries, context and world view, but without loads of heavy jargon. Thus accessible to secular modern Westerners (such as colleagues at work) who say "I'm so anxious. I want to meditate. Can you recommend a book?" but aren't unlikely to get the hang of a tome on Tibetan Buddhism or a book of sutras, and aren't even necessarily interested in enlightenment. It's a good "starter" book for the dabbler that is unlikely to weird them out too much and has simple meditation instructions.

Adyashanti: More suitable for people who are more spiritually inclined, interested in awakening (or already awake), and not technique focused. He treats the overall experience of waking up in a conversational, plain-English way, including theistic language, but without being tradition-specific. Thus I have recommended him to Christians, Buddhists, non-religious/secular practitioners, etc. I find his stuff (especially The End of Your World) very good at describing the experiences that come after the first glimpses of awakening (1st path and onward). For technique focused people he doesn't often tend to resonate until 3rd path territory or later, when surrender and devotional inclinations more commonly arise. For some people these inclinations are present early in practice, and then he can be recommended earlier.

The Cloud of Unknowing/Book of Privy Counsel are interesting and widely accessible because although they are Christian, they focus on a practice of simply offering yourself, just as you are, to God, just as he is: in other words, the practice centers around allowing everything to be as it is. Because this practice is common to some Eastern traditions (not unlike just sitting in Zen or resting in the natural state, etc.) the teachings can be recognized as useful even for people with secular or Eastern practices. Although the text is in old English, the explanations and examples are quite simple and plainly said, not bogged down with a lot of dogma, ritual, or metaphysics.

Is that more helpful?
More
11 years 10 months ago #16886 by Tom Otvos
My ideal book would be a cross between MCTB and the upcoming Science of Enlightenment. I found the original MCTB to be groundbreaking because of its gritty and down-to-earth portrayal of enlightenment/awakening and, most importantly, that it was a real thing potentially at everyone's grasp. TSoE will be a real kick at cross-traditional practice, the whys and the hows. Do I know this for sure? I guess not, but I am extrapolating from the audio series which is now quite dated, and Shinzen's continuing evolution of his techniques.

So for me, what is not yet addressed is what awakening really is, without traditional baggage. And how to get it.

-- tomo
More
11 years 10 months ago #16887 by Shargrol
I had forgotten about the Science of Enlightenment audio series. That was one of the things I listened to early on which gave me some piece of mind that the whole of practice and awakening was somehow coherent, even thought there were so many traditions, practices, and experiences.
More
11 years 10 months ago #16890 by Ona Kiser
I listened to that Science of Enlightenment series over and over for a while early in my practice. I used to just let it run (it was like 17 hours or something) all night while I slept!
More
11 years 10 months ago #16891 by Ona Kiser

Tom Otvos wrote: ...So for me, what is not yet addressed is what awakening really is, without traditional baggage. And how to get it.


Isn't that pretty much the point of MCTB? Or do you feel that doesn't do the job sufficiently?
More
11 years 10 months ago - 11 years 10 months ago #16898 by Jackson
The following books have been most helpful to me...

Practical Insight Meditation by Mahasi Sayadaw - This is, reportedly, Daniel Ingram's favorite dharma book. It's the definitive manual for noting practice. I can't even tell you how many times it got me out of practice jams. I got my print copy from Pariyatti Press here . I think it's also available in full for free on Google Books.

Toward a Psychology of Awakening by John Welwood - In my opinion, one of the best books that attempts to integrate the process of awakening with a Western psychological approach (in his case, an Existential psychology). As I think you know, Welwood is the one who coined the term "spiritual bypassing." I return to this book often.

Jack Kornfield's After the Ecstasy, the Laundry, and also A Path WIth Heart. The latter actually includes a description of the progress of insight, which - although not as technical as the Mahasi book - was incredibly helpful for me on countless occasions. His book The Wise Heart is also very good.
Last edit: 11 years 10 months ago by Jackson.
More
11 years 10 months ago #16901 by Shargrol

Chris Marti wrote:

I rarely hear an explanation of why meditation works.


I'm skeptical of anyone who claims to know why meditation works. Is there a book that could be said to be a good example of that?


I want to revive this question.

Off hand, I think only Kenneth has put forward a straightforward paradigm (disembedding from experience and strata of mind) that I can recall off hand.

I tend to explain it in terms of biofeedback -- increased awareness creates increased sensitivity which results in better habits, including the radical dropping of the "taking it personally" habit.

I asked the question because it it is a question that beginners seem to consistently ask, but I can't think of a book that does a good example of explaining. Anyone else?
More
11 years 10 months ago #16902 by Shargrol

Jackson wrote: Toward a Psychology of Awakening by John Welwood - In my opinion, one of the best books that attempts to integrate the process of awakening with a Western psychological approach (in his case, an Existential psychology). As I think you know, Welwood is the one who coined the term "spiritual bypassing." I return to this book often.


Thanks for this recommendation!

It seems like in my personal experience, the two biggest obstacles have been dealing with primal defense mechanisms (fear of opening to love, primal feelings of vulnerability) and reaction-formations (especially to guilt/shame/superego type triggers). By chance are these subjects addressed in Welwood's book?
More
11 years 10 months ago - 11 years 10 months ago #16911 by Chris Marti

I asked the question because it it is a question that beginners seem to consistently ask, but I can't think of a book that does a good example of explaining. Anyone else?


Well, yeah....

I'm convinced that the Theravada paths (MCTB, Kenneth Folk's, etc.) are the result of seeing the process of perception very clearly - being able to KNOW deeply and with confidence that there really is no subject/object duality, that mind mediates experience, that what we perceive is the result of these mind-managed processes. There is more, of course, but I see this as the figure-gorund reversal that has been mentioned here a lot lately. This is one kind of non-duality, one of many, I suspect, but one that comes with the territory of knowing Co-dependent Origination. There are many layers of "this" to perceive, of course, and they can go on for years in more subtle and more subtle ways, maybe without end, I don't frankly know.

This is covered in MCTB using different language, but I know of no other source except maybe Shinzen Young. Otherwise, I may have to write it myself ;-)
Last edit: 11 years 10 months ago by Chris Marti.
More
11 years 10 months ago #16912 by Shargrol
I'll be the first to say write it up! Tom will be along shortly and say the same thing :)
More
11 years 10 months ago #16914 by Tom Otvos

Ona Kiser wrote:

Tom Otvos wrote: ...So for me, what is not yet addressed is what awakening really is, without traditional baggage. And how to get it.


Isn't that pretty much the point of MCTB? Or do you feel that doesn't do the job sufficiently?


That is the point, yes, but I think that, ground breaking though it was, it was not without its flaws. Consider all the people that are expecting their experience to match Daniel's? So I think it lacks a certain...scholarship? And I don't think there is anything on how it works, really. My vote is on Shinzen for moving that marker forward...he seems to have more cross-traditional expertise and is able to synthesize things better, IMO.

-- tomo
Powered by Kunena Forum