interesting-- VERY interesting

I was familiar with the story, because it broke just as my daughter started talking about being interested in Ayahuasca-- and it was a local boy who died.

Even though the movie was about DMT, what interested me was the content of the visions-- some of which are familiar from long-ago LSD experience; some of which are familiar from a couple of dreams, and some of which sound very like some religious and/or shamanic teachings I've encountered. The whole of manifestation emanating from an infinitesimal portal of possibility (Tibetan, thig-le); or being a kind of song, a vibration…

What I always said, even back then, is "these visions are not contained in the chemical"-- so what's interesting is our minds, and the continuities in the visions across culture and time.

I wonder if it would be a good guess that chemical-stimulated experiences fall in the A&P bucket? And maybe don't include Path moments?

My guess is it's a cocktail of nana- and jhana- like experiences, induced chemically. A great mind blowing trip might be A&P, a horrible trip might be Disgust/Misery/Fear. Various "enlightened mind" states might be boundless space, nothingness, boundless consciousness, etc. So maybe access to the same stuff, who knows? Doubt people get path, though. Seems like it mostly gives people A&P.

I suspect that as with various other sorts of internally-induced altered states (the stuff that tends to arise in phases of meditation), the "stuff" is not causal of insight, but more like side-effects. Insight is insight, and can happen with or without lots of big show. Many people and many traditions even use the big show as content for meditation, and even teach methods for inducing it, but people in practices that have no big show or don't cultivate it also wake up.

I VERY MUCH agree. Frankly, I think as more cross-tradition conversations happen, we're going to realize that most of the markers for attainment are actually solidifications of beliefs. So wild crazy wisdom behavior or emotional flatness or ability to access jhana or feeling done or other big wow moments will be seen as associated but not essential. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if even cessation is eventually seen as non essential.

It seems to fight the basic human instinct for how things work: Guy is meditating. Weird breathing thing happens. He has an insight. He tells his friend "I was breathing in this funny way, and then I realized X." Friend tells friend "look, all you have to do is breath in this special way, and you will have insight, guru said so." And next thing you know everyone's sitting around doing breathing exercises. And then they start handing out special robes to the people who are really good at breathing funny.

Because it's *easier* and fits with our expectations and preconceptions, to sign up for a program where you do x and get really good at it.

Insight is painful, arduous and uncomfortable. Realization is largely a great disappointment (over and over), or as a friend said the Ultimate Disillusionment. We like our illusions, and if we can find ways to sustain them, that's much more fun than untangling them and letting them go.

(To not be totally cynical, since that's just reflecting my own process right now, realization is also very freeing, since putting down the giant bag of illusions is a weight lifted and a cage door opened.)

Funny, isn't it-- that "disillusionment" seems "negative" and begs to be softened by the "positive" of "enlightenment." Which, in itself is a bit of embroidery on "I am one who is awake."

Yes. Feeling also like I don't want to be discouraging to others. But that's just more of the same. Thank you.

Reminds me of the story about the English dowager asked about her husband who had been ill. "I suppose he's enjoying eternal bliss-- but let's not talk about anything so depressing!"

Ona Kiser wrote: " And next thing you know everyone's sitting around doing breathing exercises. And then they start handing out special robes to the people who are really good at breathing funny.

Because we don't have enough video comments on this site, and because selectively quoting video can yield unexpected hilarity: www.tubechop.com/watch/1598061

That's exactly the breathing I had in mind when I wrote my silly example.

Once, a while ago, I saw a blog post from somewhere about how people ingesting psyclobin, magic mushrooms, resulted in brain wave patterns very similar to those induced in meditation. Don't remember what type of meditation.