Vince's awakening

Do you know when the discussion dates from? A few years ago? Or recent?

I haven't listened to it yet, but I asked about the date because it seems that often enough people re-evaluate or have a different view of their past practice - ie they have more context and hindsight, and may change their views about what was important, what meant what etc. In any case, I'll take a listen over the weekend.

Thanks for posting Tom. I look forward to listening.

Nifty. Thanks for sharing.

Ok I listened to this while packing for a trip and it really lines up with a lot of my experience. However, for some odd reason I got 'lucky' and this all happened very fast for me. I say lucky in quotes because I still have to say that the faster one gets to '4th path' or 'that end of seeking place' the longer the integration process will be. However, that being said, I stand with Vince and now realize that EVERYONE is different. There is no one way. If you would have asked me that a year ago I would have told you otherwise.

The skill of the interviewer is half the pleasure of listening to this. He's a good match for Vince-- who, himself, is refreshingly non-dogmatic. It's a bit like lucking into eavesdropping on some really well-informed guys talking about a subject of interest.

Hmm-- were you aware that Jeff Warren is in Toronto, and up to some interesting things, Tom?

www.consciousnessexplorersclub.com/about/

"Our Mission
The CEC is an attempt to rescue spiritual and meditation practice from dour fundamentalists of all persuasions. Our mission is to approach practice in a spirit of exploration, play, and service in order to deepen our understanding of self and world. We don’t push worldviews; we investigate them. Our ambition is global; our community is local. We sit, we dance, we act. We fall asleep during long lectures. We wake up refreshed."

"CEC Code of Conduct

Here are some important confusing principles to keep in mind.

- Be fearless.
- Be generous.
- Admit you don’t know. Explore anyway.
- Help other explorers when they’re tired. Lean on them when you are. Point them towards the source when they’re lost.
- Throw parties.
- Un-fixate. Everything passes. Even you.
- Learn to enjoy paradox.
- Create opportunities to help, but don’t tell anyone about it.
- Practice handstands.
- Never miss a Halloween.
- Be kind to animals and shrubs.
- Meditate every day. Or get very curious about geology – anything that expresses your wonder at being part of this whole existing.
- Cultivate equanimity, a behavioural and sensory smoothness.
- Try not to take anything personally (thanks don Miguel).
- Fight war, because, really, what’s it good for?
- Call yourself on your own shit so other people don’t have to.
- Stop boring people with your absolutist theories of reality, especially if you are nondual.
- Plant a tree.
- Disregard all rules."

I like it!

tom, every time all the 'no retreats' people tell you they did no retreats, you say 'yeah, yeah'. and then a 'lots of retreats' guy speaks up and you say 'see? i'm doomed.'

Russell wrote: ....I stand with Vince and now realize that EVERYONE is different. There is no one way. If you would have asked me that a year ago I would have told you otherwise.

Russell, I wonder what's happened in the last year to change your take on that? Thanks, Mark

Mark Peacock wrote:

Russell wrote: ....I stand with Vince and now realize that EVERYONE is different. There is no one way. If you would have asked me that a year ago I would have told you otherwise.

Russell, I wonder what's happened in the last year to change your take on that? Thanks, Mark

A year ago all I knew was the Mahasi models. Now something resonates with all kinds of various traditions in various religions that lines up so much with some of my experience. I am on a plane right now. I can go more into it later if needed.

Ona Kiser wrote: tom, every time all the 'no retreats' people tell you they did no retreats, you say 'yeah, yeah'. and then a 'lots of retreats' guy speaks up and you say 'see? i'm doomed.'

I wonder if there is any basis (worth talking about) for hypothesizing what the proportion is? I live in a town where there has been a fairly big hard-core Rinzai style Zen center for 45 years, which must have generated a lot of results data by now. It would be fascinating to know what the teacher's view on that is. I know that their model has been that if you really expect awakening you commit your life to as much daily sitting as you can responsibly arrange and likewise as many week-long intensive retreats, such as ideally 4 per year for a busy householder. And you expect to commit to this for several years, maybe even decades. Just from a handful of people I know well enough that I used to commiserate with them about having a hard time getting anywhere despite practicing, those that kept plugging away with going to retreats (likely driven by insight disease) eventually started to get it, or lose it, whatever. I know even more also-rans who stopped going to retreats and poked along sitting for stretches every now and then, but mostly relating to formal practice as a Starbucks chat topic or something to get depressed about, who never got it. And I know some people who have integrated a modicum of ongoing practice into their lives and obviously have better lives for it, but would tell you they don't feel even close to awakened. Even though it's hard core here, it's somewhat mushroom in that you're not supposed to talk about your experiences/attainments/levels etc. I've been trying to fit in a lunch date with a friend who I'm sure is awakened after 40 years of continuous retreat practice with vipassana, zen, tibetan and other teachers, and ask him right out his observations on this.

The thing that 1st got me looking for a way to do vipassana again, when I always lived places with only zen centers, was 10 years ago reading Shinzen who described when he originally started out as a new zen teacher at the International Buddhist Mediation Center of L.A. mostly with Asian teachers of Chan, Vipassana and Tantric if I remember. He said the teachers compared notes and noticed that the vipassana students generally made faster and more reliable initial progress than the zen students, and that's what influenced Shinzen to start getting into vipassana teaching. So it could be that non-mushroom pragmatic Dharma is just a lot better with short-to-intermediate term results than Zen and it's retreats model.

Mark Peacock wrote: He said the teachers compared notes and noticed that the vipassana students generally made faster and more reliable initial progress than the zen students, and that's what influenced Shinzen to start getting into vipassana teaching. So it could be that non-mushroom pragmatic Dharma is just a lot better with short-to-intermediate term results than Zen and it's retreats model.

It is my experience that Vipassana/Noting is like Turbo boost in the beginning. It really got my momentum going until I sort of understood what was going on then shifted to "just sitting". But I still use Noting from time to time if I think things are getting to "mellow" or I'm slacking in practice.

"Tom, every time all the 'no retreats' people tell you they did no retreats, you say 'yeah, yeah'. and then a 'lots of retreats' guy speaks up and you say 'see? i'm doomed.' "-- Ona

Another thing I noted with interest is that both guys have studied (quite a bit, I gather) with Shinzen. WHO DOES REMOTE-ACCESS RETREATS-- if I remember right. (hint, hint)

I believe he also teaches regularly somewhere near Toronto.

ETA-- also, if I heard right, Vince was referencing well over a decade of seeking and practice, with the advantage that, on the job, he received massive dharma exposure. If you're gonna make comparisons, you should give yourself credit for progress achieved under far less conducive circumstances.

Excellent point, Chris-- if anyone managed to adequately convey the radical, luminous confusion of these events, it would be a great help for those who feel they are just slogging along-- somewhere.

Another good point.

A great illustration of "contextualization" about 4:00 in.

Otherwise linked just for sheer brilliance!

It showed up on my FB newsfeed, from an unknown friend of a friend, I think. Stuff like this is why I don't bail!