The Philosophy of Forgiveness

This video was recommended to me recently:

The Philosophy of Forgiveness

I haven't watched anything else by this guy, but I think this one is quite good.

Cheers,
Florian

He makes a nice explanation of forgiveness being a spontaneous response, not something you try to make happen or something you can fake and gives good examples of the common manipulative and needy kind of interactions people often have.

I'd add, which he doesn't mention, that forgiveness does not have to involve restitution exactly - after all, you can forgive someone who is dead or absent, who never rebuilt trust with you through any action on their part. So in that sense I'd say forgiveness can arise in a context that has nothing to do with conditions (the action of another person finally meeting your requirements to re-establish a trusting relationship) but can arise without that, when you have some inner adjustment that allows it to arise. But it does have to be spontaneous and authentic or it's not forgiveness.

Thoughts?

Just to wander a little further - isn't that sort of the core of being non-manipulative? Doing things without conditions (in the common sense)? For example, I knew someone who used to give me gifts quite often. But they were not given out of generosity, but as a symbolic way of trying to maintain my attention and closeness. So a gift had to be acknowledged, commented on, praised, displayed prominently, and so on or else feelings were hurt. I felt a sort of bondage in each gift, as if it were a hand hanging onto me. And when finally we were able to discuss this openly the giver recognized what I was saying and acknowledged that there was this underlying seeking of connection beneath the act of giving the gift. And it released us both from the game.

Why is it we feel so afraid to simply say "I am so afraid, please comfort me" but instead break dishes and throw tantrums? I've seen this a lot when death or illness strikes a family - some of the more insecure people involved, terrified to see death threatening, cannot recognize their simple need for a feeling of safety and instead lash out and become neurotic, trying to find safety in the constant attention their activities creates. And then everyone ends up stressed out and arguing. When all that was really needed, deep down, was a lot of love and hugs. Of course sometimes people are so locked up in their fear they can't even get to the love and hugs stuff. Maybe they've never experienced it. Most people don't have much insight into their own layers of mind games. Therapy can help. Meditation can help.

It seems everything we do with other people can either be conditional (I am doing this so you will do that) or unconditional (I am doing this freely, and allowing you to respond however you are moved to respond, without repercussions). Or perhaps better terms would be manipulative versus authentic?

Thoughts?

Amen and Sadhu to all you wrote there, Ona!

"Release" in the spiritual sense still means "get my grubby little hands off it". The word "manipulation" has a latin root for "hand" in it, I think.

Still, what is "authentic"? Not seen through the lens of an ego, not done for the preservation of an ego, not under control of an ego? (Ego not in the Freudian sense, but in the sense of the Buddhist defilements of greed, hatred, delusion)?

Duncan once wrote that the simple Freudian 3-tier model kind of collapses or fully integrates on Enlightenment. I like that.

Sorry for the terse post, I'm in a bit of a hurry.

Tangent: "Co-Dependent Arising" has gained a whole new meaning to me in the past few months. You know, co-dependent as in "co-alcoholic" and so on.

Cheers,
Florian

Florian Weps wrote: The word "manipulation" has a latin root for "hand" in it, I think.

As in "manicure"? If so, perhaps we should also refrain from pedipulation

Mani-cure...sounds like laying on of healing hands?

I hate manicures, btw. I think I am the only woman who can't stand having her nails done. Ick.

Jackson Wilshire wrote: As in "manicure"? If so, perhaps we should also refrain from pedipulation

Definitely! Stepping on people isn't a nice thing to do.

Cheers,
Florian

Florian Weps wrote: Still, what is "authentic"? Not seen through the lens of an ego, not done for the preservation of an ego, not under control of an ego? (Ego not in the Freudian sense, but in the sense of the Buddhist defilements of greed, hatred, delusion)?

That was what I was intending by it. Is it not a bit like your saying "not fooling yourself"? The more clearly one can see the way the game of manipulation works (not just interpersonally, but in ones own thought process and reactions), the more one is freed from being dragged along by the games? Deep honesty seems to me tied to deep compassion, too. Seeing how much suffering you have had from being entangled in games, you realize others are also suffering that way, and that it can't be resolved by explanations or arguments, but only by their own process of realization, should they care to start looking. And they may not.

two more cents...