- Forum
- Sanghas
- Dharma Forum Refugees Camp
- Dharma Refugees Forum Topics
- Reading, Listening and Viewing Recommendations
- Bodhidharma's Shoe
Bodhidharma's Shoe
13 years 7 months ago #5558
by Tom Otvos
-- tomo
Bodhidharma's Shoe was created by Tom Otvos
I came across this on Shinzen's blog, a really neat documentary on what it is like to be on a weeklong sesshin:
http://www.folkstreams.net/film,175
Not so sure about the early wake-up call. I'd be sleeping through the first few sits to be sure!
http://www.folkstreams.net/film,175
Not so sure about the early wake-up call. I'd be sleeping through the first few sits to be sure!
-- tomo
13 years 7 months ago #5559
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Just getting back to broadband-land, so haven't had a chance to watch yet. But on the subject of early sits, has anyone sat at odd times of day and found it easier/harder? The few times I've had to sit very early (at a retreat) I found myself half-groggy. I prefer to have some coffee or tea and time to move around a bit before sitting. Likewise if I sit very late at night I tend to be quite sleepy (say, 11pm, etc.). When time allows my favorite sitting times are around 10am and 4pm.
Less
More
- Posts: 834
13 years 7 months ago #5560
by Jake Yeager
Replied by Jake Yeager on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
I've done some sesshins (weeklong retreats) where we sat until 1am. Usually the time goes by lickity-split although I was groggy. I noticed the same thing when I was in college pulling all-nighters. After 1am or so time seemed to speed up.
I usually like to sit before 9am and before bed around 10pm. I find that my sympathetic nervous system is revved up past 9am and my concentration is often not as strong. Sitting before bed allows me to fall asleep really quickly I've found so that's one reason I do that. Although one can sit anytime/anywhere my teacher told me the optimal times are in the early morning (3am...yikes!) and after the sun goes down/before you get too groggy. This is when the parasympathetic nervous system predominates.
I usually like to sit before 9am and before bed around 10pm. I find that my sympathetic nervous system is revved up past 9am and my concentration is often not as strong. Sitting before bed allows me to fall asleep really quickly I've found so that's one reason I do that. Although one can sit anytime/anywhere my teacher told me the optimal times are in the early morning (3am...yikes!) and after the sun goes down/before you get too groggy. This is when the parasympathetic nervous system predominates.
13 years 7 months ago #5561
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
@sunyata - interesting about 3am - I find that is a natural time when I wake up and then fall back asleep (assuming I went to bed at a reasonable hour and am not short of sleep). In fact my husband has for a couple years used that waking point to get up and meditate for an hour, and then come back to sleep. He finds it handy because there is no possible reason to think about someone calling, emailing, etc at that time of night and so is able to just pay attention to his meditation and not think about work or the day coming up.
Less
More
- Posts: 834
13 years 7 months ago #5562
by Jake Yeager
Replied by Jake Yeager on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Yeah that happens to me too! I wake up at 3am often. At some point I think I'd like to get into a similar habit of sitting at that time.
13 years 7 months ago #5563
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Do a search on "second sleep" sometime - apparently there were periods in history (before electric light in particular) where people often got up at that time and spent time talking, playing music, praying, hanging out, etc. before returning to bed. I recall someone wrote a book on it in the last few years maybe?
This link to wikipedia for example mentions it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep
This link to wikipedia for example mentions it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep
Less
More
- Posts: 834
13 years 7 months ago #5564
by Jake Yeager
Replied by Jake Yeager on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Huh! Never heard of this. I loved the article too.
" Peasant couples, who were often too tired after field labor to do much more than eat and go to sleep, awakened later to have sex . [4] People also used this time to pray and reflect, [5] and to interpret dreams ,
which were more vivid at that hour than upon waking in the morning.
This was also a favorite time for scholars and poets to write
uninterrupted, whereas still others visited neighbors and engaged in
petty crime."
Really, the world is your oyster at 3am. If I don't feel like sitting, well then, petty crime here I come!
"The brain exhibits high levels of the pituitary hormone prolactin
during the period of nighttime wakefulness, which may contribute to the
feeling of peace that many people associate with it. It is in many ways
similar to the hypnogogic and hypnopompic states which occur just before falling asleep and upon waking, respectively."
That also may facilitate meditation in some way. Thanks for turning me on to this. Really fascinating.
" Peasant couples, who were often too tired after field labor to do much more than eat and go to sleep, awakened later to have sex . [4] People also used this time to pray and reflect, [5] and to interpret dreams ,
which were more vivid at that hour than upon waking in the morning.
This was also a favorite time for scholars and poets to write
uninterrupted, whereas still others visited neighbors and engaged in
petty crime."
Really, the world is your oyster at 3am. If I don't feel like sitting, well then, petty crime here I come!
"The brain exhibits high levels of the pituitary hormone prolactin
during the period of nighttime wakefulness, which may contribute to the
feeling of peace that many people associate with it. It is in many ways
similar to the hypnogogic and hypnopompic states which occur just before falling asleep and upon waking, respectively."
That also may facilitate meditation in some way. Thanks for turning me on to this. Really fascinating.
13 years 7 months ago #5565
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
This also makes me think about how my relationship to sleep has changed. I used to be a light sleeper, sort of vigilant, so the smallest noise or disturbance would wake me up. And then I'd be annoyed that I was awake, and lay there thinking, etc. and fuss and fret. During a period where I was meditating a lot, I wasn't able to sleep through the night anymore - usually no more than 4-5 hours before waking up and feeling wide awake (often around that 3am time). But what was interesting was that it didn't bother me to be awake - I would just lay there and meditate, or get up and read or write, or turn on an audiobook, or putter around the house and make some tea, and so on. And eventually I'd go back to bed and sleep until I woke up again (usually at dawn). I wasn't tired from lack of sleep, I just didn't seem to need the same amount of sleep, so I didn't get into that rut of fretting and worrying that I wasn't sleeping. Less sleep still happens if I meditate more than an hour a day - like once in a while if we go to a day-long retreat or something like that. I just don't seem to need to sleep as much after that. But most days I meditate less than 1 hour, and generally I do sleep all night - 6 or 7 hours.
Less
More
- Posts: 834
13 years 7 months ago #5566
by Jake Yeager
Replied by Jake Yeager on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
When doing the weeklong retreats I was never really as tired as I had expected because we were sitting around 15 hrs/day. This is despite getting 2-4 hrs of sleep per night. So I have experienced the same phenomenon. Meditating seems to substitute for sleep to a degree.
When you lie down and meditate, how do you do it? I once was instructed to imagine that every single pore in my body is breathing.
When you lie down and meditate, how do you do it? I once was instructed to imagine that every single pore in my body is breathing.
13 years 7 months ago #5567
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Times when I've meditated laying down it's almost always because I am laying in bed at bedtime or I woke up in the middle of the night, etc. not because I specifically set aside time to meditate laying down.
In terms of "how" - at those times I always just do whatever technique I've been doing during my regular sits.
In terms of "how" - at those times I always just do whatever technique I've been doing during my regular sits.
Less
More
- Posts: 834
13 years 7 months ago #5568
by Jake Yeager
Replied by Jake Yeager on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Oh okay. I ask because I find it easier to breathe when I am lying down. My anxiety creates a lot of tension in my body that sometimes makes sitting meditation uncomfortable. If I continue sitting it lessens, but still may remain really tight. So I thought I might try some lying down meditation as well to see how that feels.
13 years 7 months ago #5569
by Tom Otvos
I cannot, cannot, cannot sit first thing in the morning. When I wake up, it takes me a coffee and an hour to get going. And that is getting up at a reasonable time. Not having been on a retreat or sesshin, I can safely predict that those unreasonable times would kill me.
-- tomo
Replied by Tom Otvos on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Just getting back to broadband-land, so haven't had a chance to watch yet. But on the subject of early sits, has anyone sat at odd times of day and found it easier/harder? The few times I've had to sit very early (at a retreat) I found myself half-groggy. I prefer to have some coffee or tea and time to move around a bit before sitting. Likewise if I sit very late at night I tend to be quite sleepy (say, 11pm, etc.). When time allows my favorite sitting times are around 10am and 4pm.
-ona
I cannot, cannot, cannot sit first thing in the morning. When I wake up, it takes me a coffee and an hour to get going. And that is getting up at a reasonable time. Not having been on a retreat or sesshin, I can safely predict that those unreasonable times would kill me.
-- tomo
13 years 7 months ago #5570
by Tom Otvos
There was a great documentary on CBC radio about two years ago on the "Science of Sleep". I have yet to find a podcast of it, but this segmented thing was one eye opener for me. Apparently, if you totally disengage from things that "force" the day/night issue and sleep when you need to, and get up when you wake up, after about two weeks you would get onto a two(or three?)-sleeps-per-day routine.
I need to find that podcast...
ETA: The episode is called "While You Were Out", but a recording remains elusive.
ETATA: http://www.jeffwarren.org/radio/while-you-were-out
-- tomo
Replied by Tom Otvos on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Do a search on "second sleep" sometime - apparently there were periods in history (before electric light in particular) where people often got up at that time and spent time talking, playing music, praying, hanging out, etc. before returning to bed. I recall someone wrote a book on it in the last few years maybe?This link to wikipedia for example mentions it: [url]
-ona
There was a great documentary on CBC radio about two years ago on the "Science of Sleep". I have yet to find a podcast of it, but this segmented thing was one eye opener for me. Apparently, if you totally disengage from things that "force" the day/night issue and sleep when you need to, and get up when you wake up, after about two weeks you would get onto a two(or three?)-sleeps-per-day routine.
I need to find that podcast...
ETA: The episode is called "While You Were Out", but a recording remains elusive.
ETATA: http://www.jeffwarren.org/radio/while-you-were-out
-- tomo
13 years 7 months ago #5571
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
@sunyata - there's no reason at all not to "sit" laying down, except most people tend to fall asleep. As some well known (but forgotten by me) teacher said, one day you'll be in bed old, sick or dying and you might as well be comfortable meditating in that position! Two tricks for not sleeping include keeping your eyes open or another is to hold one arm bent at the elbow (hand in the air, upper arm resting on the bed or mat - not in a tense way). If you fall asleep your muscles will relax and your hand will fall, waking you up immediately. One other trick I've used when sitting up when I was very sleepy was to use one of those meditation timer apps on my phone, and set it to chime every minute or two. You might also simply not worry about whether you fall asleep or not, and if you do just return to practicing whenever you wake up. I tend to think that works better in advanced practice, when meditation sort of continues despite changes of consciousness. For newer meditators I think it helps to try to stay awake.
@tomo - I love my morning coffee, too. And the reasons you mention are some of the reasons I've very rarely gone anywhere near a retreat.
@tomo - I love my morning coffee, too. And the reasons you mention are some of the reasons I've very rarely gone anywhere near a retreat.
13 years 7 months ago #5572
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Speaking of which, if you've never read Duncan Barford's book The Retreat, it gives you the other dozens of reasons retreats can be frustrating, bizarre and hysterically funny (usually only in retrospect).
13 years 7 months ago #5573
by Tom Otvos
I will track that down and give it a read. Frankly, I desperately want to do one retreat because I firmly believe that one of my obstacles is being pulled in so many directions with work and home life. If I could pass on the 3-7am sit, I'd be all in. Oh...assuming I could find the time to f-off for a week.
-- tomo
Replied by Tom Otvos on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Speaking of which, if you've never read Duncan Barford's book The Retreat, it gives you the other dozens of reasons retreats can be frustrating, bizarre and hysterically funny (usually only in retrospect).
-ona
I will track that down and give it a read. Frankly, I desperately want to do one retreat because I firmly believe that one of my obstacles is being pulled in so many directions with work and home life. If I could pass on the 3-7am sit, I'd be all in. Oh...assuming I could find the time to f-off for a week.
-- tomo
13 years 7 months ago #5574
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Yeah, I think that may be pretty much the sole benefit - being forced to sit without being interrupted by chores, kids, work, etc.
I highly recommend just doing weekend ones - doing a 1, 2 or 3 day retreat once in a while gives you a kick in your practice and encourages the sits in between. One local Buddhist center here often has all-day meditating on Saturday or Sunday or both, with or without a special guest teacher. Often it's just the sangha. And a place near where I lived in the US has a 2-3 day weekend retreat every month or two, usually with a theme for the teaching. Most working people can't just do 10 day retreats, so the weekend ones are fairly common, I think.
And then you only have to get up at 5am one or two times.
I highly recommend just doing weekend ones - doing a 1, 2 or 3 day retreat once in a while gives you a kick in your practice and encourages the sits in between. One local Buddhist center here often has all-day meditating on Saturday or Sunday or both, with or without a special guest teacher. Often it's just the sangha. And a place near where I lived in the US has a 2-3 day weekend retreat every month or two, usually with a theme for the teaching. Most working people can't just do 10 day retreats, so the weekend ones are fairly common, I think.
And then you only have to get up at 5am one or two times.
13 years 7 months ago #5575
by Tom Otvos
So, shortly after you posted that I got the Kindle version for my iPad (talk about instant gratification!). I read it yesterday and, if I get a chance, maybe we can discuss on another thread. But what freaked me out from the get-go was the dedication: "To Alex, Florian, Ona, and Tom". Was that some cool eBook trick to put the names of purchasers into the text, or is that another Tom? Presumably you are *the* Ona? What did your dedication say?
-- tomo
Replied by Tom Otvos on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
Speaking of which, if you've never read Duncan Barford's book The Retreat, it gives you the other dozens of reasons retreats can be frustrating, bizarre and hysterically funny (usually only in retrospect).
-ona
So, shortly after you posted that I got the Kindle version for my iPad (talk about instant gratification!). I read it yesterday and, if I get a chance, maybe we can discuss on another thread. But what freaked me out from the get-go was the dedication: "To Alex, Florian, Ona, and Tom". Was that some cool eBook trick to put the names of purchasers into the text, or is that another Tom? Presumably you are *the* Ona? What did your dedication say?
-- tomo
13 years 7 months ago #5576
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Bodhidharma's Shoe
LOL - I ordered a copy but haven't seen it yet (it shipped to the US and I'm in Brazil). I like having hard copies of favorite books. I don't know another Tom, but maybe you are right! 
I read it when it was in final draft. I suggested a foodfight scene at the end, but I think he didn't take my suggestion.
I just ordered a Kindle version so I can refer to it for discussion...
I read it when it was in final draft. I suggested a foodfight scene at the end, but I think he didn't take my suggestion.
I just ordered a Kindle version so I can refer to it for discussion...