Brand new video of Shinzen Young talking about the pros and cons of "maps."

Wow, it pays to subscribe. This is brand spanking new. Uploaded today. I thought sharing this was a no-brainer -- Young, "Maps," etc. Very interesting and on a subject that has gotten a lot of discussion here lately.

I admit that while I was ready to find this interesting, I was surprised at how much what he said, for the most part, matched my current understandings. Also, he said some new things I hadn't thought of before that answered a couple of questions for me.

Correct me if I am wrong but I'm pretty sure he said that basic awakening is "stream entry," which is what I am tending to use as a basic definition nowadays -- at least for basic discussion purposes. And I imagine, but haven't confirmed this yet, that he might agree that SE is the initial apprehending of the three C's on some insight level.

He also said that SE is a relatively doable thing for most of us, and that it can be come upon in a wide variety of ways and practices, which I also agree with.

From there on, he seemed to contend that any progress from SE to "arhat" isn't some linear narrative things but more random, circular, etc. (I can't remember his exact term but I think it had something to do with logarithms?) This seems right to me as well but, I was a little surprised that he seems to believe that there is such a thing as an arhat and that it is some really rarified special thing. I'm curious about this but don't want to be one.

I related to his talk about tortureing himself over maps and where he was on the maps early in his practices. I think that portion was very helpful and I could really relate. And, it is such good advice to stress actual, non-verbal practice over map thinking.

This is wonderful, Mike; thanks for disseminating it! I greatly like and admire Shinzen and his teaching mode. I think he is the most user-friendly teacher going; he gives the least evidence of being defensive when questioned; he is a wonderful meld of respect for tradition and interest in extending scientific knowledge. He also seems to remember his own 'early days' particularly well.

This is wonderful, Mike; thanks for disseminating it! I greatly like and admire Shinzen and his teaching mode. I think he is the most user-friendly teacher going; he gives the least evidence of being defensive when questioned; he is a wonderful meld of respect for tradition and interest in extending scientific knowledge. He also seems to remember his own 'early days' particularly well.

-kategowen

You are welcome, thanks for thanking me.

I like his humility and down-to-earthness as well. He also made some good points about the open-mindness of science as opposed to spritual/religious authority. However, there is probably no way to get away from that odd worshipful vibe you can feel from the audience in the sense that anything that he thinks is funny they seem to automatically do as well. I see the same thing in courtrooms with judges, which I think is a similar kind of authority level in relationship to the rest of the people in the room (and, I can recall from college with certain professors as well)

And, now that I think about it, in my own life right now I have found myself the oldest and most economically viable (male) person in a household that includes my wife, my 16 year old son, my wife's grown daughter,a step son-in-law, and three grandkids ages 2, 10, and 11. The five inlaws/grankids are our guests temporarily until they find/obtain a home of their own. Our house is three-bedrooms/1750 square feet. In this situation I think to the in-laws I am a bit indulged and my jokes probably aren't really THAT funny.

He lists various maps:
Ox herding pictures (two versions eight or ten)

Four classes of noble individuals -- maps for a lifetime of practice -- big picture:
-stream entry
-once returner
-non returner
-worthy
This seems to be Young's favored map.

Progress of insight with 16 stages that preceed stream entry

four jhanas
eight jhanas
nine jhanas

elephant herding pictures

10 bodhisatva stages
Tozan's five degrees

Cons: Tortured himself for 15 years with regard to "where am I at on these maps?" Literally torture.
One gets too concerned with "rating." and status.
Putting an inordinate amount of time and energy into maps is time and energy not devoted to practice. (he says most Buddhist time and energy spent on the internet is spent on 'who has the best map' -- "people who are actually serious about this stuff by and large are not all that interested in who has the best map") People might delay starting the journey until they are sure they have the best and right map and just spend all their time reading, thinking, debating and never really get to practicing.
"None of the maps really work very well, meaning that I know enough based on my own experience as a teacher/scientist that we can do a lot better in making enlightenment available to a lot more people" which will take deep practice, scientific mentally, and out of the box creative thinking. This will create better maps.

(he says that right now most of the great "masters" are old and old-fashioned asians who won't communicate on a down-to-earth equal level like a scientist. This prevents the growth of world dharma/enlightenment Young envisions. This will change as their is more frank dialoguing)

Pros
They give you an idea of where to go, what to look for and idea of what to do when various things occur
They can motivate you
They are based at least in part in real people's real (deep) experience. So we need to pay attention to it.

Young doesn't have a map.
He provides just general trends. Over time you will notice an elevation in your concentration, clarity, and equanimity and that will have dramatic effects on your life.
But we want to know that we are making progress. So he gives four criteria to judge progress (in hierarchy of less to more mature):
- during periods of practices one has experiences that are unusual, entertaining and fun (this motivates one to keep practicing except that it doesn't last)
- during a formal period of practice you can taste mindfulness/concentration/clarity/equanimity while doing the practices (this is an intrinsic reward of good practice) he also calls it the "taste of samadhi"
- an ability to keep practicing without nice experiences and the "taste of samadha" but still beginning to see less suffering, more fulfillment, insights/understangs, improvements in your behavior, a sense of love and service for humanity (it can be one or a combination of these)
- to just "do the practice" without thinking about goals
"satori is the passing away of the distinction between enlightenment and non-enlightenment" - Maezumi-Roshi"

From there the discussion is still interesting but more varied and less on "pros" and "cons"

That hierarchy of signs of development seems, intuitively, quite relevant. Thanks so much for summarizing Mike! I haven't had a chance to listen to this whole thing but now I'm motivated to do so.

More:

"enlightenment in the sense of stream entry is just the beginning."

He believes it is possible to be an arhat but it is extremely rare. But, he says an arhat isn't quite a "buddha." a buddha is a "creative arhat," an arhat who comes up with something no one else has and there has only been one of those so far. but, we are ready for a new one but that new one may not be a person, but, rather, a team of people.

He doesn't really believe in the "dark night" as expressed so much lately. He thinks it is something brief, maybe, but not so serious.

He doesn't think progress is linear, he thinks it is cyclical. So, rather than a linear map, he has a looping and branching algorythm.

Yes, there are certain "broad trends" but not everyone goes through the same broad trends in the same way and one shouldn't judge their practice based upon these trends.

It seems like the 16 stage up to stream entry 'progress of insight" map as taught by Ingram/Folk that so motivated many of us is not such a big deal to Young. It is what happens after stream entry that maybe he is more interested in and what he concentrates on in his teaching? I still don't know that much about him.

But, in this video at least he shows very little interest in the "insight" map and seems to believe that stream entry is an easily accessible result of serious/good practice.

Funny, the next video in the series seems to be about death/dying...