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things the buddha didn't say

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14 years 3 months ago #2715 by Ona Kiser
Some interesting points from this article:

http://www.dharmafacilitators.org/index.php/welcome/eng/whatthebuddhadidnotteach

"Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta are the true reality of existence.
The Buddha
has never made such a claim about impermanence,
unsatisfactoriness and
non-self. He said that these are three
characteristics of existence.
If they were the true reality, there
would no release, no liberation.
The Unconditioned is anatta but not
anicca or dukkha."

"Life is suffering. This is a common misstatement of the first
noble
truth Again, there is no such statement from the Buddha. If
this was
reality, then there would be no escape. When suffering
arises in life,
it is due to the conditions. When the conditions for
suffering are not
present, then suffering does not arise."

"The view that we are always free to make a choice
does not accord with
experience. We did not choose to be born, to
stop growing old, to get
sick or to suffer pain. We can’t choose
to live for ever. We can’t
choose to be happy in every moment of
the day. We can’t choose the
outcomes of events that effect our
life. .. In clarity, we naturally cultivate ethics,
samadhi
and wisdoml. It is a natural priority. Wisdom says that
there doesn’t
feel to be any choice about it. It is simply
conducive to a liberated
way of life. Deep down, there is really no
choice."

Thoughts?
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14 years 3 months ago #2716 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic things the buddha didn't say
I just read the entire article.
I don't have any specific opinions on specific points just yet I guess.
However, I think this article is a good way (a kind of blue print) to sort of challenge my assumptions about dharma theory and practice.

For me just one read showed me how little I really know about what the Buddha did or didn't teach, and how little I know about all the source material (if there really is any of that) vs. commentaries that came later. Theravada, Zen, Tibetan, Pure Land, etc. How are they the same? How are they different?

Now I think there are two parallel things happening:
1. Our own practice experience/investigation which produces original insights that are not necessarily something that can be codified and conceptualized and explained.
2. All the technical, detailed teachings of Buddhism.

One can inform and assist in the progress and development of knowledge of the other. Of course, I favor number 1., but I think more open investigation into number 2. could help me work with number one.
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14 years 3 months ago #2717 by cruxdestruct
First of all, there will be a lot of people who would quibble with that first line: 'The Pali Discourses (Suttas) are the original body of texts of the words of the Buddha.' And while I take the Pali Canon as my personal authority, I think that's a simplistic and ahistorical claim.

Then again, Theravadan that I am, I appreciate much of the rest of the article—though often it seems like Mr. Titmuss has a very specific (false) doctrine in mind, which makes the thing rather opaque if you're not familiar with all the things he's arguing against.

It reminds me of a relatively bomb-throwing talk that my teacher Josh gave a little while ago: http://dharmapunxnyc.podbean.com/2011/05/20/the-punk-dharma/
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14 years 3 months ago #2718 by Ona Kiser
I enjoyed that punk talk. :)

It agree it did seem like Titmuss might be writing that in response to a particular teacher, group or incident I am not aware of.
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14 years 3 months ago #2719 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic things the buddha didn't say
Yes, thanks Zach.

At first I was pissed because even though I was 21 in 1977 and at that point hated "corporate rock" and loved Sex Pistols, Ramones and actually went to the shows in LA/Hollywood -- nowadays I LOVE listening to old Journey and Chicago and Fleetwood Mac, Eagles, etc. records.

But, the meat of the talk was really provocative in a good. I'm going to listen to it again right now.
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14 years 3 months ago #2720 by cruxdestruct
Yeah, it hurts me a little bit when he makes fun of Fleetwood Mac :(
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14 years 3 months ago #2721 by Dharma Comarade
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14 years 3 months ago #2722 by Chris Marti
"Thoughts?"

Ona, I've been reading and listening to Christopher Titmuss for many years. I hooked up with one of his dharma facilitators very early on and who was a big help to me. That person was Ken Streat. I've benefitted a lot from all of that, and I have yet to find anything Titmuss asserts to be demonstrably incorrect. For me Titmuss represents a very interesting fusion of what we now call the pragmatic approach to dharma and the Thai Forest tradition.

Much of what Titmuss teaches just points. In fact, it points beyond the three characteristics of impermanence, not-self and dissatisfaction to something permanent, unchanging. In this way he also assuages my inner Zen ;-)
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14 years 3 months ago #2723 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic things the buddha didn't say
Does it seems like there is an assumption here, that whatever it is found that the Buddha actually taught, equals "the truth?" Or, is this just an argument strictly on what the Buddha did or didn't write say or teach?

See what I mean? I read the assumption into such essays, but I could be wrong.

The idea seems to be, if we dharma practitioners find and then stick to what the historical Buddha ACTUALLY said, then we are on the right and correct path. If an idea or a teaching or a practice is found to be contrary to the buddha's real and original teachings then it must be wrong, incorrect, and, basically, ineffective.

What do you think? Am I wrong about this? I'm really not sure.
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14 years 3 months ago #2724 by Chris Marti
I don't believe Titmuss is doing that, Mike. I think what he's doing is pointing out that a lot of additional "stuff" has been added to the original texts, whatever they say (mainly through interpretation, ill-conceived translation, and so on), and that we need to simply be aware of this and make sure to judge it on its merits. I've never heard Titmuss assert that we should believe anything except that which we can experience directly. That's one of the things that has drawn me to him over the years and, frankly, to Buddhism in general.
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14 years 3 months ago #2725 by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic things the buddha didn't say
So, this is just to make one aware of when a teaching is additional or new?
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14 years 3 months ago #2726 by Chris Marti
I'd say it's to clarify what's actually in the Pali Canon and what's not ('cause few people actualy read it in favor of second-hand interpretations), what the variations in translations are, and to illuminate some of the more common misunderstandings, at least as Titmuss sees them. Note that, as was mentioned here already, he often takes a position anti to what might be called the "prevailing wisdom" and explains how he views the issue.
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