up and down the mountain

What do you guys think?

www.tricycle.com/interview/great-experiment

This interview seems to bear on our conversation about David Chapman's new blog entry. The issue of the transmission of Dharma, dharma in the world. I'm also reminded of Liu Ming and Steven Tainer's Dragon's Play which is a commentary on a Taoist version of the Ox-herding pictures (which feature a sage, a monkey, a mountain and space). The message of the sixth picture, monkey and sage at the top of the mountain, warns that fruition comes when monkey and sage actually dissolve into the great sky. Otherwise, there can be the temptation to come back down early and "teach" based on the vision from the top of the mountain, or even a high pass. Ego proceeding to the very precipice but not leaping into space, a la NCR.

Good points, Jake. What a lovely interview-- not least, because Helen Tworkov uncharacteristically doesn't make herself the focus of it. Tim Olmstead seems to be doing his teacher credit, and all of us a service, in conjuring a sense of the 'old days' and what one would feel in the presence of such a great master.

I've read the business of the tears and the goosebumps-- as evidence of a kind of bodily recognition of such mastery-- numerous places over the years. Traditional students have a kind of cultural expectation of the evidence; as a western adopter, I'm most interested in those western accounts where the person is completely taken by surprise by these manifestations. Where, for instance, someone is dragged along by a gung-ho friend, and expecting not to be impressed-- and busts out bawling!

I think I like these stories because they indicate that any one of us, at any time, can come face-to-face with Immensity, and be left with no questions, just a heart broken open to wonder and gratitude.

The interview was interesting. It seems like there has to be space for both people who are interested in deep spiritual transformation and those who just want a social sangha. I attended a local Japanese Buddhist center's weekly services for a while, and except for the half dozen people who were training or had trained as priests, the rest said quite clearly they attended because it was a place for them to feel welcomed, to have like-minded friends, to have a spiritual atmosphere that was not judgmental or demanding or culty or dogmatic, etc. Interesting too, 90% of them said they had been raised in strict religious households (orthodox Jews, Catholic school, fundamentalist protestant homes, etc.) and couldn't deal with God and dogma and all these other things that had been hammered into them. Yet they clearly couldn't avoid feeling there was some need for something "spiritual." The abbot there worked with that - services and teachings were "correct" according to tradition, but selected for their accessibility to the sangha. Those who came for retreats or priest training got a whole other level of practices and teachings.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all - there are various needs. Just like there's no reason you should have to become a monk or nun to be Catholic. You can be Catholic by dropping in at mass now and then, and doing the life marking rituals like baptism, etc. And that serves many people just fine.

That's a good point Ona r.e. diverse needs in a Sangha.

What do you guys think?
[url]-experiment

-jake

Very good interview! I liked his quote from Tulku Urgyen's book Rainbow Painting:

"To sum up, we need devotion to enlightened beings and compassion to those who are not. Possessing these two, the main training is maintaining nondistraction. When we forget mind essence we get carried away. But with devotion and compassion, the practice of recognizing mind essence will automatically progress.

Please keep this teaching at the very core of your heart; not at the edge or to one side of your heart, but at the very center. Please think, “That old Tibetan man said devotion and compassion are essential. I’ll keep that right in the center of my heart!”

I have wanted to say this for a long time, but I feel that now people are more willing to listen. It’s because it’s extremely important that I felt it should be said.

I am telling you the truth here. I am being honest with you. I am not lying. If you practice the way I have described here, then each month and year will yield progress. And in the end, no one will be able to pull you back from attaining enlightenment."