New Kenneth Folk interview on Batgap

This thread makes me wonder how many post-4th-in-pragmatic-dharma-sense have put themselves under vastly senior teacher(s) after their 'attainment'. Would their evaluations of their experiences change? Shinzen talks about the importance of this.

I'm quite a spiritual rebel myself, but it seems to me this is the only solid way to verify we're not bullshitting, stopping early, taking on harmful evaluations, etc.

That's an interesting question, Deklan-- do you include Daniel Ingram and Kenneth Folk in the yogis who should submit to vetting category, or the vastly senior category? (Not a rhetorical question, although I haven't given the implicit hierarchy you refer to a whole lot of thought.)

Worth remembering also I think, that we all do meditation for a purpose (though our purposes may be different - to stop suffering, to know the meaning of life, whatever it may be). So if your experience at a certain point is that you've achieved your purpose (though paradoxically the path itself will of course change that 'purpose' and indeed the concept of a purpose or goal) then the whole question of verifying whether you're bullshitting is beside the point.

Yes, Kate I include Dan and Kenneth in needing a senior teacher. I think everyone that can find a senior should, if only for a time. Even when you're senior-est I think you should read the advanced old dead dudes. (assuming you're interested in continuing your meditative development or you're teaching in whatever way)

Shinzen talks about it in these, iirc



I'm faaaar from an authority, but it just made sense to me after hearing Shinzen say it.

Yes, good point every3rdthought. But there's a danger someone might reach what they consider 'final' or 'complete' and then create a (perhaps temporary) glass ceiling for others.

every3rdthought wrote: Worth remembering also I think, that we all do meditation for a purpose (though our purposes may be different - to stop suffering, to know the meaning of life, whatever it may be). So if your experience at a certain point is that you've achieved your purpose (though paradoxically the path itself will of course change that 'purpose' and indeed the concept of a purpose or goal) then the whole question of verifying whether you're bullshitting is beside the point.

This. Very well put.

I am all in favor of "continued education"-- with a suitable teacher if you encounter one, or with a self-guided tour of the 'treasury of knowledge' that we are so lucky is now so widely accessible.

I have a personal unwillingness/allergy to handing over ultimate critical evaluation to anyone else. It just never worked for me, and I have seen some really hideous examples of failure of that strategy for others. It introduces too many extraneous obstacles into the feedback loop.

I should add that, IMO, to the extent one teaches one can be appropriately called a teacher. Teach a few friends sometimes? Somewhat of a teacher. Teach a lot of people/friends online, email, skype, etc? Teacher. Wrote a dharma book? Definitely a teacher.

Maybe the issue is labels - once called/considered a teacher, a whole bunch of expectations, concepts etc are overlaid. Maybe the teacher is the attitude in each - if the attitude is open and to learn, then all are teachers and all are students at once. In this moment, anyone could say or do something that could play the role of a teacher to someone else, if they are open to it that is. For a period, there may be some who say and do alot of things that are value to more people, but it might just as easily turn the other way too which is just fine too. Crowd sourced mentoring? The point of a sangha?

Avoiding definitions, etc why not just: If you teach, also be taught.

Tom Otvos wrote:

E. Köln wrote: Sidenote - Kenneth Folk says "Happy to answer questions or discuss." @ DHO,
some interesting Q&As already posted:

www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...ards/message/5660045

Hmmm, and not at AN?

At AN too! I'm reading my way through this thread now, and will comment on comments if it seems appropriate, but if anyone wants to ask me something directly, that would be great!

Hi Kenneth, It's Jamie from Chicago here (and X X from DhO, ugh, I re-read some of my posts and didn't like the way they sounded, oh well...)

Thanks again for the interview and so much more. I do have a question: how is your life going? Any stories to tell from being in the belly of the beast in San Francisco? How was teaching meditation out there? Any lessons learned about what it means to want to teach meditation in the 21st century? Are you finding that people are interested in Buddhism or meditation or awakening or "empowerment" or something else? What seems to be the most effective way to teach, in your experience? -- no need to answer the questions specifically, just interested in what comes to your mind on the topics.

Best wishes!

Hi Kenneth,

We met at BG2014, you and I talked for 30 minutes about social noting, I'm the guy that does the 'word ball' style of noting, where I note my frame of mind *after* I've heard the previous persons note. I was just wondering if your thinking about that has changed?

Also, I think you were considering bringing a physical ball into a form of practice, I was wondering if you've tried that?

Matt

shargrol wrote: Hi Kenneth, It's Jamie from Chicago here (and X X from DhO, ugh, I re-read some of my posts and didn't like the way they sounded, oh well...)

Thanks again for the interview and so much more. I do have a question: how is your life going? Any stories to tell from being in the belly of the beast in San Francisco? How was teaching meditation out there? Any lessons learned about what it means to want to teach meditation in the 21st century? Are you finding that people are interested in Buddhism or meditation or awakening or "empowerment" or something else? What seems to be the most effective way to teach, in your experience? -- no need to answer the questions specifically, just interested in what comes to your mind on the topics.

Best wishes!

Hi Jamie,

The three years Beth and I spent in San Francisco were quite a ride. There is a sense among the privileged class there that SF is the place to be right now. Kind of like Paris in the 1920s. Lots of cultural and business innovation, and the sense that anything is possible. Nerd culture is huge; social awkwardness is not stigmatized, as it often goes hand in hand with intellectual or engineering/computational brilliance, which is valued above all. Almost unimaginable wealth is downright commonplace in the social circles we found ourselves in. The difference in lifestyle between the richest and the poorest is dizzying. Lots of stories to tell. Went to the World Economic Forum in Davos, taught an informal meditation workshop in the penthouse of the Hotel Europa. Went to salons in San Francisco with tech geniuses and billionaires. Was invited to speak at an exclusive gathering of elite business people in Utah. Was invited to join a private social club called the Battery in San Francisco. Made some good friends in SF. Founded my own startup and got VC funding for it. The company fizzled and Beth and I returned to New York.

My big takeway from rubbing elbows with rich folks is that it's a pleasant lifestyle, but not likely to make a person happier than a middle class life. And I think it's obscene that some people have much more than they can use while other people around the world starve. I saw very little social conscience among the rich. Libertarianism is a very popular political stance, at it allows rich people to ignore the suffering of the poor. Since coming back to NY, I've been obsessed with learning about social justice. Reading books like Plutocrats by Chrystia Freeland, Capital by Thomas Pickety, The Internet is not the Answer by Andrew Keen, and watching videos about John Rawls and Karl Marx. Also researching Universal Basic Income, and scheming ways to get my rich friends to fund a basic income for very poor people in India.

Chris Marti wrote: Kenneth, what is the cutting edge of your practice these days?

Marveling at the way this whirlwind keeps spinning around with no one at the helm.

matthew sexton wrote: Hi Kenneth,

We met at BG2014, you and I talked for 30 minutes about social noting, I'm the guy that does the 'word ball' style of noting, where I note my frame of mind *after* I've heard the previous persons note. I was just wondering if your thinking about that has changed?

Also, I think you were considering bringing a physical ball into a form of practice, I was wondering if you've tried that?

Matt

Hi Matt,

Nice to hear from you again. No, I haven't tried it yet, but I remember playing the word ball game with you, and now that you've jogged my memory about it, I'm going to try out the ping pong noting while tossing a ball technique you and I talked about.

Thanks Kenneth, I hear a lot of mileage in just those two short paragraphs. Almost makes me want to cry, but it must have also been fascinating too -- a real unreal, mind blowing experience. The god realm seems like a nice place to visit, but I kinda get it... I grew up in the next town over from the god realm and it seems like such a waste, especially when it takes so little to keep a human alive. All that said, I hope I can hear more about it sometime. Give a big hug to Beth for me!

Chris Marti wrote:

I saw very little social conscience among the rich. Libertarianism is a very popular political stance, at it allows rich people to ignore the suffering of the poor.

This bears repeating -- so I'm repeating it.

Also, Kenneth, I have a follow-up question: I know you had the opportunity to teach a number of wealthy Silicon Valley types. What is your take on why they wanted your teaching?

This is a place where I think the rich are just the same as the rest of us; the two main motivations for practice are desire to escape suffering, and desire to explore altered states. I think most of the rich people I worked with were motivated by these. A distant third motivator was desire to become more productive. The reason this one isn't high on the list, though, is that almost no one is willing to put in much effort at meditation in order to increase productivity when coffee is so much more effective.

Edited for grammar and clarity