Self Awareness

I am highly aware (and have been for some time) of the play of reactions in situations like you describe @jackhat. That's what self-awareness is about - seeing that when someone says something it's triggering that usual reaction. A lot of my usual reactions don't come up anymore. Others do. Sometimes it's hard to know until one day I'm in a situation and I don't react the way I used to. Or I do, and I'm surprised, because I hadn't been in that situation for a while and didn't know how things would turn out. Look at the motives. Why does it matter if someone agrees with you politically, why is a certain rebuke from a friend hitting a nerve? Usually there's some fear under all those sticky spots. Fear of missing out, being abandoned, not belonging, dying, and so on. Or there's attachment - attachment to the adrenaline rush of argument, attachment to winning or dominating, attachment to being thought more clever or proving your allegiance to one person or group, power dynamics, manipulation... Mindfulness and Metta towards those sticky spots is a healing and helpful.

(ETA: What I forgot I was going to add is the problem is that assholes or psychopaths or non-self-aware people tend to think they are justified in what they are doing anyway, feeding themselves stories that support their reasons for reacting like they did, so it doesn't always work... which is I think what Chris was getting at...)

@ both, One thing I think is utterly useless is making sweeping decisions about enlightenment based on a) your own experience or b) hearing about other people's experience (which includes the accounts of ancient mystics and prophets and so on). Both are the lives of specific individuals and we each have our own unique baggage, trajectory, life history, weaknesses, etc. We also tend to project a lot. So we may admire a certain teacher or colleague and take his descriptions and behavior as our standard for what enlightenment is. Or we may read some ancient account by a mystic or yogi and resonate with his descriptions and say "yes, that's how enlightenment is." Or we may be in a long phase of personal difficulty and decide that awakening therefore is probably just going to be like that. Or we are in a long period of bliss and ease and decide that's how it is.

The only thing that's true is what you are dealing with in your immediate context right now. The rest is speculation, fantasy or imagination, hopes and fears. Might as well just deal with your own life right now and not try to turn it into a thesis about how things will be for everyone else or for yourself long term. Some people (awake or not) have lives of relative mental peace and ease, even in the face of disaster. Others struggle terribly or suffer even given a life of ease and safety. There are millions of variables at work in every moment.

Regarding enlightened assholes...

My experience with practice and life in general has given rise to two working hypotheses which I think may be true at the same time:

1. I've never met a fully enlightened buddha or any other perfected being, who could never, ever, act like an asshole.
2. Every being is perfectly, beginninglessly enlightened.

Suzuki Roshi is credited as saying something like, "There are no enlightened individuals, only enlightened activity." The Bodhisattva Vows are also a clear indication - to me, anyway - that the the practice and the goal are not mutually exclusive. What else can be meant by, "Being are numberless; I vow to liberate them all." A key aspect of nondual realization is ceaseless activity (i.e. realized impermanence). There are no beings apart from Being, and Being is not static. It can't be static because it lacks inherent existence.

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that we're asking a faulty question. What we perceive as individual beings are "form," and form is not other than emptiness. Yet form is impermanent. Of course form can change. That's what form does!

Can a being fluent in realization act like an asshole? Of course they can. Does that mean their actions are somehow beyond fault, because of their enlightenment? No! Our problem here is that we see beings instead of activity.

Practice never stops, not even for a Buddha.

If I define someone who is a arahat, perfected being or even 4th Path as being free of ill will, attachment to sensual desire and so on as the suttas say and I further define these people as staying in that. state once it's reached, then being an asshole is impossible by definition. But, it does make a lot of sense to talk about enlightened acts.

Two of my favorite writers, Krishnamurthi and Allan Watts, knew how to write about advanced stages and probably also knew the territory. Krishnamurthy had sex with the wifes of several friends of his. Watts was an alcoholic and seems far from a perfected being. But, I just don't know in either case.

Jackson: I liked your comment about perfected beings. At the end of time, each of us will stand up on the stage and take a bow for being the most perfect me that each of us could be.

ona, I agree about dealing with our present context but, I like you, spend a lot of time on a spiritual practice. If I knew I would be an asshole and full of ill will as a result, I would do something else. Maybe not, since I enjoy the journey so much.

jack

how would spiritual practice turn you into an asshole? if you already think you are one that's something to work on with or without a spiritual life. having a spiritual life or pursuing a spiritual journey is not a choice. it happens to some people and not to others. keep in mind that your ideas about perfected beings are based on your hopes and fantasies and on marketing materials from various religious traditions. if you are called to seek, then seek until you find (or realize there's nothing to find, or whatever your soul drags you through). i like what adyashanti said, that almost by definition awakening is never what you expect. if only because anything you can imagine is based on the very conceptual thinking wisdom processes are designed to undermine. 'i want this' is by definition an impossible goal to hold onto. sorry for short sentences, typing w one finger on mobile phone. other opnions? cheers.

Chris Marti wrote: There is a difference between being free of ill will and being capable of self-restraint because you can observe in real time the workings of perception and reaction. I seriously doubt any human being is completely free of ill will. I don't doubt that there are those who can resist acting on it, and some of those with great frequency.

I worry about perpetuating myths from ancient texts that include perfect beings, perfect enlightenment and the like. It's not what we observe in highly developed spiritual practitioners who report time and again that they are fully not free of anger, doubt, fear and worry. So why not choose to believe the evidence and not the myth?

To add a caveat, there are people, such as the stereotypical bad guru, who will spin the story of perfection and claim they have all sorts of specialness, because that helps their group grow and (maybe) their ego grow and their bottom line grow. Then there are people like the stereotypical very humble traditional teacher who will not discuss personal experiences openly and will say something really insightful, quickly followed by "but I am only a beginner and couldn't possibly dream of ever purifying myself sufficiently blah blah... but I know this amazing teacher in the mountains of China who was really really super enlightened..." It's never "oh, but you should talk to Joe Bob, that guy who comes to sangha on Friday." And then there are the dozen people you know personally who are open about their experiences and (maybe) honest about their weaknesses....

So that's a pretty crap data set to base any ideals on. So it comes back to just dealing with your own experience, and if someone else's stories or teachings motivate or support you, awesome. But if you're going to put people on pedestals and idolize them for perceived genius accomplishments, you will have the benefit of being disillusioned at some point, which can be very good for practice. Everyone shits.

Me? I'm very rarely angry. It's not a strong trait in my personality. I'm very patient and I like people. I love people, actually. On the other hand I have a fair share of doubt, feeling unworthy, and pride. I catch those when they come up and work on them. We each have our own cross to bear, as they say in that one religion.

Hmm-- your formulation shone a light on the crux of the situation, Chris:

" Perfect enlightenment is a full time, always on, un-interrupted existence ..."

How could enlightenment change the terms of our existence, which are that we are a kind of flickering response to flickering conditions: no more independent, solid, or permanent than anything else. Nothing about us is carved in stone: why would enlightenment be different?

On the other hand, "enlightened" is inconsistent with: selfish, avaricious, unkind, abusive, grossly ignorant behavior... etc.-- so I don't believe in "enlightened assholes." I believe that there are assholes who claim enlightenment; and I don't accept their assessment.

My opinion.

What if someone has all those qualities (unselfishness, generosity, kindness, compassion, humility, wisdom, etc.) but isn't "awake" in terms of nondual realization? Maybe that's better than nondual realization that isn't integrated with those qualities? ie the realization of emptiness is not worth much if not brought to bear on ones every thought and deed?

On the other hand it seems it can be a very supportive realization for deeply cultivating those good qualities... It seems, though, that unless those good qualities are cultivated and embraced that the only thing awakening solves is Spiritual Seeking Syndrome. ?

If one is afflicted with Spiritual Seeking Syndrome, then the idea (misguided, fantasy-filled, inspirational or otherwise) of enlightenment/awakening is deeply important. I think that's worthy of respect (ie meeting people where they are). That seeking needs to exhaust itself, and that only happens with realization, so that process and the experiences that evolve from have intrinsic value and purpose... to the extent teaching, mentoring or discussion offer healthy support to those who are seeking (without being dismissive or disdainful of their need), that's a good thing. I think it's important NOT to be dismissive of that seeking just because one has sought, found and now has other priorities. (Not implying anyone here is, but just to point it out.)

The thing in the overall conversation I was responding to was the idea (one of several themes going through the thread) that 'enlightenment' is not as important as not being an asshole. Sorry to sidetrack the main themes...

My practice has slowly improved how I experience and react to situations. I think this is a good indicator of my progress however slowly or lack of progress along the spiritual path. I would think this improvement would continue as I continue to practice. If I extend a line representing this improvement out a long, long way, I have recently noticed it seems to correspond to what I have read in the ancient texts about enlightenment and the higher states. So, I don’t find these texts misleading or a fantasy.

One of my favorite Nasrudin stories is when he borrowed a donkey to till his vegetable patch and promised to return it the next day. After two days had passed, the donkey had not been returned and the owner came looking for it. He knocked on Nasrudin's door but Nasrudin didn’t answer. He knew Nasrudin was inside so he yelled, “Nasrudin, where is my donkey.” Nasrudin shouted back that the donkey ran away and he didn’t have it. Then the donkey’s owner heard a donkey’s bray coming from Nasrudin corral. After a silence, Nasrudin yelled, “Who are you going to believe, me or the donkey?”

jack

Chris, another way I could say how I “experience and react to situations… [is] a good indicator of my progress however slowly or lack of progress along the spiritual path” is "how I experience and react to arising and passing away of phenomena is a good indicator…." This to me would include non- dual, non-conceptual, oneness, etc., experiencing. Dealing with other people with compassion and non ill will would not be excluded nor would it be the only thing.

I too am trying to be clear.

jack

The other central question is what does "enlightened" mean to any given one of us? There is the momentary experience/epiphany/realization of "how things are--" to my mind that is an experience, not realization. Realization involves being clear on how things are [that there is no "getting away" with unkindness, any more than you can "get away" with bringing a sledgehammer down on your foot]-- all the time, under all circumstances. But that is not a permanent STATE; it is a consistent way of functioning.

Do I believe that there are people who are that clear without having been "seekers", without having had one of the articulated sorts of experiences, who wouldn't use any of the current "terms of art"? Yep. And sometimes it's just having been around a good and "saintly" person, who may have been a practitioner-- and being so sensitive that a kind of benign contagion occurs.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not dismissing experiences. Experiences are great! For some of us, that's where our practice began: with experiencing a compelling vision of what is possible. But they are the beginning of the path, not its culmination. And there are some saintly people who got there by other means.

Chris Marti wrote: I encounter a lot of meditation practitioners who have very high expectations of their practice that are just unrealistic. Talking to one yesterday morning made me think about this and I think all I can really attribute to my practice is awareness, more precisely for this topic, self-awareness. And that's enough. In fact, it's way more than enough. Some folks want, expect really, their practice to change their personality, end their bad habits and fix their relationships. I don't think a practice alone will do that. What it will do is make you aware of your personality traits, your bad habits and the nasty stuff you might be doing to other people.

Self awareness is the key to the kingdom of human behavior, and meditation can give you that. Make awareness your only expectation and it might unlock the door.

I have more to say but would like to hear what you think.

I had expectations like that as well, but what I found was just what you've said here. A clearer view of what I am doing, why I am doing it and through that clarity, I can then decide what actions and habits are useful and which one's are not. Meditation practice itself does not "fix" anything (not in my experience). It has begun to clarify the difference between actual experience and the dreams/fantasies that I put on that experience. The more I see that happening, the less I am interested (or even capable in a way) of causing my own (or others) suffering. It just becomes more and more obvious what is right/natural/authentic/harmonious (whatever). But again, practice did not "fix" anything. That stuff is still there, but it doesn't stick as much.

duane_eugene_miller wrote: Meditation practice itself does not "fix" anything (not in my experience). It has begun to clarify the difference between actual experience and the dreams/fantasies that I put on that experience. The more I see that happening, the less I am interested (or even capable in a way) of causing my own (or others) suffering. ...

It's a funny expectation, isn't it? When (before practice) we say "I don't want to suffer anymore" what we usually mean is "I want the whole world to change around so all the things I don't like go away and all the things I like stick around." Well how is that supposed to work? Besides there being no known mechanism by which any person can script all of the events of their life moment by moment to their specifications, every other person has the same desires. Everyone's football team can't win at the same time! So the weird (but common!) expectation that meditation will make everything else around me change to suit my preferences is really rather bizarre.

From my perspective all we do is change our relationship to experience. But that's a bad sell, isn't it. Because if there's one thing I often hear from people who are in a tangle and want everyone else to change, it's that THEY don't want to change at all. And as meditation works its changes, those are the fears and resistances that keep coming up, no? Not wanting to let go of attachments, identities, beliefs, habits... In my own practice I've found that "letting go of attachments" hasn't been a voluntary act. They are simply taken away, and I'm left to get used to it.

Yeah I think that's the part many people don't want to do. The changing. I'm certainly no advanced practitioner but I've already noticed quite a bit of changes I didn't care for at first. Certain habits and ways of being, ways of presenting myself, just sort of went away. That's still happening. I imagine it always will now. It's loosened me up about "who" I can be so there's some freedom in that but at the same time there is a quality of authenticity that cannot be denied in a way. So it's like, I have the freedom to go against that if I choose but it doesn't feel right when I do. That's a difficult thing to come to terms with at first. Especially if it's a part of your personality (or ego) that you're quite fond of. Such as being a rock singer, or a painter or whatever. Suddenly one day you don't care about it that much and realize you never really did. Strange.

duane_eugene_miller wrote: So it's like, I have the freedom to go against that if I choose but it doesn't feel right when I do. That's a difficult thing to come to terms with at first. Especially if it's a part of your personality (or ego) that you're quite fond of. Such as being a rock singer, or a painter or whatever. Suddenly one day you don't care about it that much and realize you never really did. Strange.

It's a peculiar and unsettling realization; that moment when our undistorted nature shines through just enough to expose the fallacy of the separate "me." When this happens for me, it's as though I am simultaneously aware of the distortion AND yet unable to let it go. Talk about an existential crisis, or at least a tangible sense of cognitive dissonance.

Reality has a way or reorienting itself, however, when we allow ourselves to relax our contractions in full awareness. I don't think one needs to be an "advanced" practitioner to experience this. And really, this is probably more important than a lot of what we call "advanced" anyway.

@duane - the kind of changes you give examples of have been powerful wrought for me. I find quite often it's like you said that something just starts to feel "wrong" - as if it's clashing with authenticity, and I look and look and puzzle and then I finally recognize what's fallen away or changed. Or it sometimes happens that something just kind of goes away, and one day I don't react the way I used to and I'm rather surprised. Or, more painfully, sometimes something falls away and I resist and wish I could keep it, but I can't, and I grieve the loss and gradually adapt. And these more painful things are often about the sense of identity, deeply held beliefs, or what I thought was important in life.

(And this kind of stuff started up quite early in my practice and continues until the present...)