Teacher? No teacher?

For the first time really, I recently had a rather loose affiliation with a dharma teacher. For reasons I don't need to go into here, the instruction was intermittent, and, I believe, ultimately incomplete and unsatisfying (how much of this is completely my fault I'm not sure).

I got to a frution/path moment that I now think was for the second time (the first times was back in the 1980s) and then wasn't really able to get more detailed instruction and, now, I'm teacherless.

What about the rest of you? Who has a teacher and who doesn't? If so, is it a close relationship or not? Satisfying or not? If you don't have one, why? How is it going without one? Do you think your practice is suffering (no pun intended)? etc.

For myself, I'm seem to be ready to kind of reapply myself to both sitting vipassana practice and basic mindfullness/skill full behavior in a more intense purposeful way. I'm ready for something, you know what I mean? And I think that something will be the fruit of committed effort.

Would this work better with a teacher? I don't know. To tell you the truth the idea of trying to hook up with someone from a local zen center or one of the many vipassana people (IMS/Spirit Rock affiliated) in Northern California doesn't really appeal to me. So, I don't know.

I have given the whole issue of teachers and teaching a lot of thought over the last decade+.

At the moment, my most useful hypothesis is that different sorts of teacher/teachings are most useful at different stages of ones trajectory. There's a place, early on and at specific junctures, for the instruction in techniques of yoga or meditation; historically, there were folks with this job description. But trying to make that sort and level of instruction answer for EVERYTHING gets the instructor in over his/her head, and doesn't serve the student.

I fear this is one of several ways in which ripping an appealing piece of a tradition out of context and then applying it ad lib REALLY doesn't work.

[to be continued, because, speaking of work, that's where I am]

Now THAT is downright fascinating!

There HAS to be an irresistible ego boost for some people when they are looked upon as a dharma "teacher" or "master" or whatever. Obtaining and nurturing that boost often seems to be the main activity of a lot of teachers.

It's creepy, and, at the same time, I know if I was just a slightly different person I'd succumb to the same temptations if they were offered to me.

With my prejudice I guess I took it as the "teachers" doing a little performance (that is what schtick is to me) to try and impress the interviewer the same way they were used to impressing their students.

Sorry for the misinterpretation.

My comment might be true though, but meant for a different context in a different thread.

Just to answer Mike's question, I'm currently without a teacher, but at that same time, I think that any moment or any person can be a teacher, if we're ready for it. It's the whole "what the student is ready, the teacher appears".

I think any true teacher is just someone who can represent the "other" to us, in a way that we can internalize it and let that moment of contact with an "other" to touch and move us. Sometimes, we find people with whom we resonate, and perhaps work with for several years. Sometimes, we find people with whom we resonate, but can't get close to, and that proves a lesson in its own right. Sometimes we find a teacher who really resonates with us for a while, but then, not so much.

It's all good though, no reason to hold onto any of this. One of my favorite all time quotes from the Buddha is "There are two mistakes on the spiritual path. One is never to start, and the other is to stop too soon".

Though it's my belief that "too soon" could just as easily be removed from that sentence and it would still make the same point. Perhaps even a better one.

I am without a teacher again, as I was when I started this journey. However, while I was fending for myself from the get-go using resources I felt were relevant to me, I am ok with it now where I was not before.
The reason for the different perspective now (aside from more experience)? Now I have a pool of like-minded practitioners that I can tap at almost a moment's notice. I can grope around as I see fit, but there is a distributed sangha to keep me from going too far astray.
I'm good with that.

-tomo

Yeah, that's kind of where I seem to be at as well.

here here

If I ever get to the bottom of why spiritual teachers creep me out so much I'll have made some real progress

ha! Yeah, I guess I just keep coming back to wondering whether many teachers are attracted to that role for the wrong reasons, and the students too. I think there's a lot of primate hierarchy and belongingness stuff playing out in human groups, spiritual groups no exception, and there's just a lot of funny stuff programmed into the rules and roles.

I always appreciate mentoring from someone who's been there, done that, when they have a respect for my style and the self-awareness to realize they have a style too. And that means that we're each alowed to have our own ways of articulating our experience; the need for ironing out and agreeing on a vocabulary often seems to mean in practice a wish to change each others' minds. Real listening and a living conversation doesn't require mutually conforming to a certain way of constructing meaning.

What I feel drawn to as a way of being isn't "professional yogi", it's ordinary fully human engaged post-modern western adult, and I want peers and mentors who are doing that. I'm not knocking professional yogis, it's just not my thing!

Some reason, I trust someone who identifies themselves with ordinary-- even if unconventional-- roles, more than with dharma teacher. If the awakening isn't deep enough that they are always able to see my buddhaness, then I'm not sure I need to relate to them as "teacher", per se. I've met one or two humans of whom I suspect such a deep level of awakening-- they're very gentle, stable people in a completely non-creepy, non-robot way. And I feel comfortable relating to them as worthy of aspiration-admiration, beyond simple respect for someone who's got skills. But I'm able to relate to them that way precisely because I detect no need in them for me to do so.

Technical meditation coach, sure, if that's what I need. But I think I'd rather get that kind of feedback from a community of peers, including peers who've been at it longer than I!!

Wow...which teacher? I have a Pali teacher, an Abhidhamma teacher, and a meditation coach.

The meditation coach, as he will tell you, is not a teacher. The instructions and path(s) are laid out in excruciating detail. Yet, although most of us--at least those that follow a more strict "religiousy" path like me--know the instructions and path very well, we are inclined to try something different when out practice hits a "plateau" and levels off. It's like we get bored if we don't have new, major insights twice a week.

My "coach" is there to keep me on track & remind me to keep doing what I should be doing.

Quite often, two people will be each others' coach. Given one knows the commentaries & related suttas well, it doesn't require a high level of attainment; you simply need an objective voice that isn't emotionally invested in your practice...that sees more clearly.

This is where I differ from some others that say you should attain stream-entry or 2nd path prior to "teaching". This may be true if you're teaching a non-canonical system. However, if you go "by the book", you only need the intellect & an good eye for the indicators.

In the past, I've successfully coached individuals above my level of attainment. I remember hearing Stephen Batchelor giving his sob story about how he couldn't teach because he felt like a hypocrite (since he had yet to fully understand/expereince that he taught). He abandoned his tradition and is certainly no Geshe today. It truly is sad, for if he had stuck with it & done as he was told, he would probably be a very different man today.

The truth is, many modern gurus experienced the true depth of practice during their teaching years--not beforehand.

And from those I've had the fortune to speak with one-on-one at the Temple, the vast majority agree that this has helped to keep them humble. The teachers "that claim to intimately know everything they teach are either ignorant or deceitful", as one master put it.

So, to answer the original question: Teacher or not, you just need a knowledgeable friend that listens well, can be objective, and know what indicators to look for.

http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/495

Charlie Tart-- Meditation's 5% and Guruhood as a Way of Making a Living

Jake said: "I always appreciate mentoring from someone who's been there, done that,
when they have a respect for my style and the self-awareness to realize
they have a style too. And that means that we're each alowed to have
our own ways of articulating our experience; the need for ironing out
and agreeing on a vocabulary often seems to mean in practice a wish to
change each others' minds. Real listening and a living conversation
doesn't require mutually conforming to a certain way of constructing
meaning."

Do you guys feel there's a distinct difference between a "teacher" and a "mentor"? I'm not very hung up on there being any distinction. A teacher or mentor is someone who already has done what you are trying to do, and can offer suggestions, pointers, guidance, advice, etc. based on his/her own experience. A good one has a special knack for verbalizing that experience in a way that will resonate with you - and that might be a very different style or vocabulary for each student.

I have really enjoyed working with my mentor/teacher (we talk weekly); I also benefit from regular one-to-one conversation with peers who are at similar or more advanced stages than I am. Because all of them have been through what I'm going through and can provide advice, reassurance or just understanding. There have been so many times when stuff is scary, weird, confusing, etc. My mentor's advice is always uncannily timed and exactly what I needed to turn my attention to.

I also spend a few days a month at a local buddhist center where the teacher is a down-to-earth, sincere and open kind of guy, and occasionally with a local tibetan lama who does small-group teachings in the area. In those cases the "teaching" is much more typical/formal: lectures on sutras, structured meditation services, group discussion, but no one-on-one attention. I'm not sure that kind of teaching is much more use than reading books or listening to recorded lectures. (Not that those are completely useless, but one-to-one teaching/coaching/mentoring is much more effective, I think.)