be careful

Here's a topic that came up tangentially on my journal thread, but I've heard in dozens of contexts. And in fact I had a conversation with someone not long ago who was worried about it. From the perspective of someone worrying about it happening to them, it goes like this:

"If I wake up, I might lose the things that keep my world in order, such as a sense of right and wrong, productivity at work, being responsible, organized and efficient in my life responsibilities, and so on. I might turn into a dreamy old hippie who doesn't do anything."

From the perspective of worrying about it happening to others, it goes something like this:

"Just because you feel a loss of sense of agency or doer or knower, you need to be careful not to falter in your responsibilities. You need to be careful not to use that as an excuse to do whatever you want without regard for other people."

Now PLEASE for the love of God don't bring up some Zen dude who had an affair, the abusive guru, etc. because that horse is beaten beyond death and into the next three incarnations.

What I would find more interesting is talking about this in our OWN practices, not speculating about others.

Do you or have you feared that the more you wake up, the less kind, responsible, caring, productive, etc. you will get?
Has that so far proven to be a thing that's becoming a larger and larger problem, the longer you practice?
Have your expectations changed?
Other reactions, thoughts, ponders?

I think I've had the "OMG I'm not going to be able to function if things go where they seem to be going" thought a good many times, but it hasn't come true (so far). I'm much more efficient and productive, actually, because I spend more time just doing stuff and less time thinking about what other thing I should be doing instead. I think I'm generally easier to get along with (per my husband and mother, at least) than I used to be, also.

Anyone else?

Some sort of largely unconscious selection process seems to have gone on all my life: all the "information" out there about world-transcending, life-denying spirituality and its heroes-- a personal turn-off. The most interest I've been able to muster is curiosity about the appeal of such things to a few of my companions along the way.

I've attempted to cultivate a discreet silence about the value of both extreme asceticism, or the idea that the "ego" can or should be excised. Or that the "self" is actually GONE, as opposed to understood as the evanescent and usually not-so-important mental construct that it is.

You all have witnessed my distinct failure at discretion!

LOL! Well said, Tom. (eta: I love "because YMMV I fear MMMV")

The people I know who were focused, driven, successful business people before they woke up are still like that. The ones who were dreamy take-it-easy types are still like that. But man, I've had the fear myself over and over. Funny thing.

Ona Kiser wrote: But man, I've had the fear myself over and over.

Yep, me too. And, early on, the hope for the opposite—that with enlightenment out of the way, I'll finally be able to...

Ona Kiser wrote: Do you or have you feared that the more you wake up, the less kind, responsible, caring, productive, etc. you will get?
Has that so far proven to be a thing that's becoming a larger and larger problem, the longer you practice?
Have your expectations changed?
Other reactions, thoughts, ponders?

Yes, when I made the conscious decision embraced complete surrender in order to "awaken", I was very troubled by fears such as that, especially that I would become less human.

But as my practice deepened, I found that my perspective also broadened, and I have found that quite the contrary I became more and more human. Perhaps to become completely "awake" means to become completely human.

I don't really know though, because the only time I'm completely awake is when I'm deeply asleep.

Michael

AugustLeo wrote: ...

I don't really know though, because the only time I'm completely awake is when I'm deeply asleep.

It's a new method!

I've gotta say, I can't identify with this at all. Maybe it's because, when I started practice, I was in a place with a lot of suffering and that's why I wanted awakening - so, it seemed at the time like 'anything would be up' so to speak. And maybe because I was practicing in a tradition which defines awakening as 'the end of suffering' - what's to be scared of?

But I don't really understand 'fear of awakening' as a paradigm (rather than responding to people's personal experiences above) - if you're scared that awakening will do something bad to you, or if you like everything the way it is already, why pursue it? (it's not like it's an easy, straightforward goal that might just happen by accident... except when it does)

Ona Kiser wrote:

AugustLeo wrote: ...

I don't really know though, because the only time I'm completely awake is when I'm deeply asleep.

It's a new method!

Dark Room Enlightenment

My path seems to have been fear-heavy, ymmv. But "why bother" was not a choice after a point that came quite early on for me, and I often felt (even recently) like I was simply being worked on, whether I liked it or not.

every3rdthought wrote:

Ona Kiser wrote:

AugustLeo wrote: ...

I don't really know though, because the only time I'm completely awake is when I'm deeply asleep.

It's a new method!

Dark Room Enlightenment

Combine it with Bikram Yoga...

I have found 2 things since starting on this path in ernest:

1) My performance at work has significantly improved - stress has dropped a lot and there is less ego driven decisions and behaviours, and yet greater confidence/less shyness and able to articulate ideas and insights better.
2) I do find I am less motivated at work as I find it less meaningful. I have struggled with this at different stages - now I don't care so much about it. Doesn't mean I don't want to work - maybe the point of the work is in question - so maybe there is a greater need to find meaningful work (in terms of more 'awake' values?) YMMV on what that is

You know, I never feared that kind of result from awakening in general. I've pretty much always avoided the kinds of practices advocated by those who claim achievement of that kind of result.

AugustLeo wrote: I don't really know though, because the only time I'm completely awake is when I'm deeply asleep.

While this was partially intended as a humorous play on words, it was also intended as a respectful nod to the Advaita teachings of Atmananda Krishna Menon.

Michael

This question is something that comes up a lot when I am talking to someone who is more mahayana-esque, and since talking about enlightenment is often not a good thing to do in that circumstance, I wonder what the best way to address it is.

@Michael - has any particular online source of his teachings been helpful to you, or was it from a book?

@limbic - best strategy depends on what you want from the conversation

I made a series of silly decisions when I was in my 20s because I was precisely the opposite of Kate: I was fascinated by all the vaunted gurus I was studying and felt that I should try to be ascetic and emulate them. So instead of working at a daily newspaper and using my journalism degree, I went to work at a campground after college and spent hours staring out of the plate-glass window at a mountain on the horizon, with Krishnamurti books in my backpack. Later, I worked for several years at a Thai restaurant and spent all my time being focused on the Shambhala center, going there a couple of nights a week and doing weekend retreats. I had an awesome collection of alternative comics--stuff by Dan Clowes, R. Crumb, etc., etc.--and gave it all away in this silly attempt to 'let go' of my attachments. I've also had a tendency to rationalize my decisions and make questionable compromises, expecting everything to have a 'shadow side' sort of like the yin-yang symbol, as opposed to doggedly pursuing more ideal situations. I lost faith in the idea of perfect situations in part because of the teachings on dukkha/samsara, so I've done a lot of 'settling,' particularly with my career.
A lot of this falls under the heading of spiritual bypassing, probably. But some of it is directly related to the awakening process. I can remember when I first took mushrooms being stunned by how much my behavior was motivated by a desire for approval from others and a fear of disapproval. When you start caring less about other people's opinions, it's freeing but it also means you're probably less ambitious than the average person.
In the end, I've always been more of a slacker, laid-back person than a hard-driver. It could totally be the case that I would have made these types of decisions anyway.

@ Ona Kiser: Rather than derail this topic, I started a new topic titled Atmananda Krishna Menon. Hope it's helpful.

I may have finally figured out what I want to say here.

I was, as most of you know, suffering from a lot of anxiety, so I took up this practice as almost a last resort. I never thought I would actually awaken. All I wanted was to be myself, except happy. I had a lot of misgivings-- what if I was no longer myself? What if I turned my back on everything, or spaced out, or lost my mind? Most unsettling was the prospect of doing something that was irreversible. What if I had buyer's remorse?

My frightening opening into Anatta following stream entry was more than I bargained for, but oddly enough, things settled down. I had thought maybe one or two paths would be fine. As time went on I saw more and more how identification with self was at the root of all suffering, and nothing short of finishing would be enough.

Now I am waiting to see how everything unfolds. Among other things, I'm realizing that I had built an identity around being some sort of huge hot shot success in academia and was constantly being thwarted by the fact that I couldn't make myself put in the long grinding hours this would require. I thought that if I could only change myself into the person I thought I should be, everything would finally be all right. This belief is related to the cultural meme that meditation can help a person perform better in a career. The truth, though, is that I really am not that person at all; I'm not driven in that way. And I'm okay with that.

One strange consequence of awakening so far is that I've lost interest in Christianity almost altogether. Going to church with my family has turned into a chore. I don't know how long this will last.

That's thoughtful stuff Laurel. I have to say that given what I thought to be common tendencies - that people who wake up, even if they were religious in a formal way, tend to become less traditionally religious or even non-religious (the "leaving the monastery" theme) - I am constantly surprised that I keep getting MORE religious. Of course the way it's understood and engaged with constantly changes, but though I've had moments where I thought "now what? this makes no sense?" I also knew by then that "now what, this makes no sense" always happens when a new perspective is developing, and if I calmly let it unfold however God likes, then in time things will settle down. In other words: weird changes followed by integration, rather than weird changes followed by big reaction.

I think what you said about starting to recognize who you actually are instead of who you are supposed to be has been relevant for me, too. For me it hasn't been career focused like you describe, but it's certainly a theme.

I have to say the "one or two paths would be fine" makes me chuckle. Did you at some point stop believing that had anything to do with your choices, that you were in charge of how deep things went? Or do you still feel that way, like you could say "okay, how things are right now, that's what I wanted, I will stop here"? I mean, can you freeze your wisdom, perceptions, insight, experience, etc right now and keep it that way forever? Or might it continue trundling along in unknown directions?

Yeah, that is pretty funny. It's a way of describing spiritual materialism--as if I'm using this practice to get what I want out of it.

My biggest challenge now is learning to listen, instead of dictating or aiming for the result I think I want, even if that result is more stillness, or becoming a member of the Minneapolis sangha and leaving church, or whatever. As long as I have a reason for being there, I will remIn in that church. And I do have a reason. So there it is.

I had a dream last night that I was going to London for a long time, and I thought, I could do this every year, take long trips abroad and travel. In fact, I've always wanted to do that. Maybe now is finally the time. Then I remembered my responsibilities. The dream had me going through all these rabbit warren like tunnels and places looking for a restaurant that wasn't there. Then I noticed that I could just go outside of all that and get to where I needed to be. In other words, I was looking in all the wrong places.

Laurel Carrington wrote: Among other things, I'm realizing that I had built an identity around being some sort of huge hot shot success in academia and was constantly being thwarted by the fact that I couldn't make myself put in the long grinding hours this would require. I thought that if I could only change myself into the person I thought I should be, everything would finally be all right. This belief is related to the cultural meme that meditation can help a person perform better in a career. The truth, though, is that I really am not that person at all; I'm not driven in that way. And I'm okay with that.

So identify with this. I think I'd been in a place where I thought only 'achieving' this identity would make me happy, and that I'd be happy to put in whatever extra hours and life sacrifices it required (precisely because my identity was so bound up with it). And to be honest, had it been easier to break into a full-time academic position, I might have kept following this 'personal ideology,' though I suspect I would've got disillusioned at some point anyway.

It was contemplative practice that made me think, OK, there are more important things that I'd like to spend time doing than being a corporate slave to a neoliberal tertiary system because it provides me some kind of self-affirmation or whatever (but I'm not bitter )

And also seeing that my whole range of possibilities had been limited by that self-identity, so I'm now in a place where lots of things that in the past would have had 'failure' stamped all over them if I'd ended up doing them, now look like exciting, interesting life options. And this stuff is good I think because it simultaneously loosens one's own clinging to a particular ego-identity (which cunningly presents as 'follow your dreams') but also relates to being less judgemental of the choices others have made and places they've ended up.