Doubt

I seem to wallow in doubt pretty often.

Although this practice has helped to eradicate, at least for now, 2-3 years of heavy depression, I feel like I'm far from the goal of awakening. Don't get me wrong, I am very grateful for losing the heaviness that plagued me almost daily, but my goal in practicing is to see through mistakes in identification and reactive patterns, and understand how these patterns are causing suffering, how they distance me from life as it is, and how certain long-held views distort it.

At least a few times a week, I'll have the feeling that I'm kidding myself, that I probably will never attain stream-entry and that the dharma is total bullshit, just another conceptual framework placed over reality, and, as such, it is just a waste of time. On the other hand, I find myself drawn back to the teachings, knowing full well that if I'd never encountered them, I never would have questioned many things about my life and my actions. My total ignorance would still be running the show.

Another large part of doubting, for me, comes from not having a teacher. I can't help but wonder if I am practicing in a way that is effective for awakening because I don't have the feedback of someone who has traversed the path and gotten the intended results. So, I can't help but feel that I am floundering without the direction of a guide, and, again, wasting my time.

I know my efforts are sincere, and I am engaged in paying attention to the fullest of my ability during all activities each day. I am meditating daily, but that has not gone beyond attention to the breathing process in the whole body and being aware of whatever arises and passes during that time. I have not attained to any level of absorption, which, according to many, is necessary on this path. It seems that I'm not capable of going deeper than momentary concentration, so I'm not sure if that is an obstacle as well.

Is doubt present for me? Yeah, I'm soaking in it! Still, I can't help thinking that even the smallest insights I've had are somewhat significant and have led to the kinds of changes that have made life just a tad easier to flow with.

Doubt is a really tricky form of identity. It's a way of being certain (and therefore safe in some way) by being certain of uncertainty. Since you have gotten through some depression already, you already know that half of the challenge is just holding more loosely to thoughts and conclusions about the world and oneself. Seeing them AS "thoughts" and "conclusions". Sounds like you are on the right path. Each release keeps pointing the way to the next release. Big doubt, big enlightenment. (Seeing the nature of) big doubt, (results in) big enlightenment.

I think Ron Crouch mentioned that at a certain point, rather than being tumbled around in a clothes dryer full of doubt... at some point we find ourselves looking throught the door of the clothes dryer, seeing all the doubt tumbling around "over there". That's a important moment of insight in meditation practice. We can be in the midst of great doubt, but somehow the deepest sense of self isn't the doubting.

Tina wrote: Another large part of doubting, for me, comes from not having a teacher. I can't help but wonder if I am practicing in a way that is effective for awakening because I don't have the feedback of someone who has traversed the path and gotten the intended results. So, I can't help but feel that I am floundering without the direction of a guide, and, again, wasting my time.

I too don't have a teacher, and like you, I've often wondered if I'm not being very effective in my practice. Apparently it hasn't been too much of a hindrance, though -- I was able to get stream entry without any personal instruction whatsoever. I did, however, read voraciously everything I could find on pragmatic dharma, noting, what to expect, Mastering the Core Teachings, etc.... Since then, I've spoken at length with several advanced practitioners, and that's been pretty helpful too. No formal teacher, yet, though.

I am meditating daily, but that has not gone beyond attention to the breathing process in the whole body and being aware of whatever arises and passes during that time. I have not attained to any level of absorption, which, according to many, is necessary on this path. It seems that I'm not capable of going deeper than momentary concentration, so I'm not sure if that is an obstacle as well.

I understand the doubt, but I also disagree that a high level of absorption is necessary for investigation. If you do a vipassana practice, it's interesting to note that Kenneth Folk says that when you can count 10 breaths 3 times in a row, that you are concentrated enough to switch from concentration to active investigation. That's been pretty much my formula for when to start noting.

Is doubt present for me? Yeah, I'm soaking in it!

Here's a classic teaching on soaking.

.

Tina wrote: I seem to wallow in doubt pretty often.
Another large part of doubting, for me, comes from not having a teacher. I can't help but wonder if I am practicing in a way that is effective for awakening because I don't have the feedback of someone who has traversed the path and gotten the intended results. So, I can't help but feel that I am floundering without the direction of a guide, and, again, wasting my time.

I know this isn't key for everyone, but for me, I feel like having a teacher and people to talk to who have traversed the territory is huge! There are dozens of us on here that are willing to help and many people that consider themselves teacher that will be more than happy to give you a nudge. Go for it, seek someone out, chat a little. Effective practice is key. If you are not sure your practice is effective, talk to someone, tell them exactly what you are doing and see if you can get a nudge in the right direction.

I agree on the high standards impediment. In a weird way, that's the ego saying "Oh, you can't possibly do this stuff. Only special people can do this stuff. You've always been mediocre and might as well not bother." As a teacher named Loch Kelly said in a talk I went to, you know you're on the scent when the ego makes excuses.

Super extra ditto on Russell's comment, btw. Stop in on the hangouts, for example. Also, many of the regular posters here will also be happy to email, skype, etc with you.

Thanks to everyone for their ideas & suggestions.

Sometimes the identification trap is so subtle that I miss it completely. A key point that caught my attention, is that an identity can form around the doubting process. Just like it's been said that there are thoughts without a thinker, there are doubts without a doubter.

So, I have to recognize the doubting as just another arising in awareness and stop clinging to it as truth. This arises from another identification as someone who aspires to awaken, or it wouldn't have the power to entangle me, right? Without being the one who wants to wake up and seemingly cannot, doubts about awakening wouldn't arise! Whoa! Insight alert!

This whole mechanism is built upon the shaky ground of shifting identifications. One day things are seemingly OK, so doubts don't arise--there's no fuel for them to arise. Another day meditation is difficult and it doesn't appear as though progress is happening, hence the fuel for doubting to arise.

This whole structure has to be seen through and dismantled, but, first I have to find the keystone, the one that causes the whole structure to collapse when it's removed.

Tina wrote:
This whole structure has to be seen through and dismantled, but, first I have to find the keystone, the one that causes the whole structure to collapse when it's removed.

Get ready for a dopey question!

In reference to the above statement in my last post: Wouldn't the keystone be "I" or "I am"?

Doh!

Another big hangup that comes with the territory: feeling like talking to a colleague or teacher means you have to perform and be thought clever. That's the "I'm a good student and want my parents to be proud" identity trap. Been there. (In other words, don't be shy!)

I think one very interesting aside in your previous post is this: "One day things are seemingly OK, so doubts don't arise--there's no fuel for them to arise. Another day meditation is difficult and it doesn't appear as though progress is happening, hence the fuel for doubting to arise."

Notice the belief you have picked up somewhere that meditation is only functional if it meets a specific set of standards and includes specific experiences in a certain order, on a certain schedule.

Compare this to a teaching guideline such as "note what arises". It doesn't say "make certain things arise and then notice them and then pat yourself on the back for duplicating Daniels' experience in chapter 3 of MCTB" and it doesn't say "by all means be sure to prevent any unpleasant feelings or sensations arising, because that is stuff you cannot and should not note, otherwise you will never wake up."

It says "note what arises".

Is that helpful?

Ona Kiser wrote:
I think one very interesting aside in your previous post is this: "One day things are seemingly OK, so doubts don't arise--there's no fuel for them to arise. Another day meditation is difficult and it doesn't appear as though progress is happening, hence the fuel for doubting to arise."

Notice the belief you have picked up somewhere that meditation is only functional if it meets a specific set of standards and includes specific experiences in a certain order, on a certain schedule.

Compare this to a teaching guideline such as "note what arises". It doesn't say "make certain things arise and then notice them and then pat yourself on the back for duplicating Daniels' experience in chapter 3 of MCTB" and it doesn't say "by all means be sure to prevent any unpleasant feelings or sensations arising, because that is stuff you cannot and should not note, otherwise you will never wake up."

It says "note what arises".

Is that helpful?

Again, I've missed some very subtle beliefs! Preconceived notions about good vs. bad meditation, from which arise ideas of progress vs. no progress. This is tricky stuff! What a sticky web I can weave without being aware of it.

And, yes, Ona, it was very helpful! Thank You.

TIna, for what it's worth, I seem to have hit Mahasi/MCTB Second Path (though sometimes I doubt that my First Path experience was not at all as it's usually described) without ever having seriously done any absorption practice, and I don't have any access to jhanas and never have. And I presently have serious doubts as to whether I'm going to get any 'further' But that all happened after finally getting it together to have a regular teacher, which I only did after maybe 5 or 6 years of doing practice without a teacher (but including daily practice and intensive retreats, though without trying to bring it constantly in which I think was key). Until then I wasn't reaching any kind of Progress of Insight stages (though in retrospect there were times when I think it was close).

I do share your feeling that it sometimes arises that I'm like, this whole thing is a waste of time (particularly when I have a lot of suffering or when progress seems stalled), but actually it seems like there's no way that I can leave it alone even if I want to. I stop practicing for a few days in hopelessness and disgust and then I find myself going, oh I could just do twenty minutes, I suppose that wouldn't hurt, and before I know it I'm right back into it again. Once you start practicing, I think, you see things that you can't unsee and that make it difficult to leave it alone. Was it Daniel who described it as 'insight disease'?

Oh, and whatever 'attainments' I have don't really seem to have diminished my depression (except that sometimes I think I now process particular negative things much more intensely but also more quickly). And diminishing depression was the attainment that I particularly wanted So it's great to hear that it's done that for you.

Tina wrote: I have not attained to any level of absorption, which, according to many, is necessary on this path. It seems that I'm not capable of going deeper than momentary concentration, so I'm not sure if that is an obstacle as well.

Hi Tina. I agree with andy when he says you do not need deep absorption states to progress. If you are able to count 3 rounds of 10 without getting distracted (other than subtle wandering but getting back to the breath quickly) then you ARE becoming absorbed. In fact, from one point of view, we start becoming absorbed as soon as we close our eyes!

I just so happen to have done a talk on absorption for a meditation group that started last month. Here is a link to a page with what I said, including an audio of 5 minutes of highlights from a talk on the subject. Plus a 14 minute (audio) of the exercise I did with the group to help them get a sense of what absorption is from their own experience. No guarantees of how good or bad the information on this page is, or how useful. Absorption in meditation - beginner's guide and meditation exercise

As for the notion of good and bad meditations.... I like what Ona has said, and her way of looking at this is a useful hint for myself also. As a visual aid, I've used the analogy of the game of snakes and ladders. Some times we hit a ladder and everything seems to be going extremely well, then the next day we find we have slid down a snake and it feels as if are back to square one. I find this analogy helps with the 'linear progress fallacy'. You will notice however, the more practice one gets, the more sixes you throw!

PS: I'm not promoting this website or it's content at AwakeNetwork.org since the type of meditation it talks about is not specifically Buddhist per say, or authoritative, or anywhere near as eloquent as the advice one will get from posters here... Just hoping in this particular case, on this particular topic, there may be something useful to share.

Re: teachers, I may have a looser definition than most. A teacher does not need to be a person you work with exclusively, pay homage to, pay money too, feel inferior to, or anything like that. It's someone(s) who can offer useful advice because they are familiar with the process. And even more loosely it can be life, experience, random people you meet and all that jazz. If I want to learn how to fix the brakes on my car, I can take a class, read a book, or I can ask my neighbor or a friend, or even just go take it all apart and try to do it by intuition and common sense - those are all forms of being taught. One or another may be more suitable depending on circumstances.

every3rdthought: I do share your feeling that it sometimes arises that I'm like, this whole thing is a waste of time (particularly when I have a lot of suffering or when progress seems stalled), but actually it seems like there's no way that I can leave it alone even if I want to. I stop practicing for a few days in hopelessness and disgust and then I find myself going, oh I could just do twenty minutes, I suppose that wouldn't hurt, and before I know it I'm right back into it again. Once you start practicing, I think, you see things that you can't unsee and that make it difficult to leave it alone. Was it Daniel who described it as 'insight disease'?


Yes, I can relate to this. Sometimes I really feel like ditching the whole thing and selling all my dharma books, then the next day I'm hooked back in because I know I've become more aware of many things about myself, and I can't help wanting to wake up.

Chris Marti: I guess I'm suggesting sangha is more important, be it live or be it virtual.

I'm starting to see the benefits of sangha. There is a lot of support and the reports of different experiences illustrate that the ways to awakening are as unique as each individual.

Colin: As for the notion of good and bad meditations.... I like what Ona has said, and her way of looking at this is a useful hint for myself also. As a visual aid, I've used the analogy of the game of snakes and ladders. Some times we hit a ladder and everything seems to be going extremely well, then the next day we find we have slid down a snake and it feels as if are back to square one. I find this analogy helps with the 'linear progress fallacy'. You will notice however, the more practice one gets, the more sixes you throw!

This is a great reminder of how practice unfolds. I've definitely fallen into the trap of the 'linear progress fallacy'. If I just take the time to think back to anything I've tried to accomplish, I've made progress, fallen, stalled, then started again until I mastered the task. Makes sense. You have a helpful website, by the way!

I've just remembered something I've heard from two sources, about doubt.

It goes a bit like this:
When doing spiritual practices, especially 'investigation' or 'enquiry' into the nature of reality/self, we build a certain amount of pressure, or intensity. This pressure/intensity/energy builds while we are in retreat, or just doing consistent practice, until our mind feels it is getting too strong and resists!
The resistance can take on many forms, but they all have the same objective - relief from the spiritual charge, pressure, intense energy build-up (or however one wants to describe it). We then find ourselves acting contrary to our objective, or 'something' turns up to thwart our efforts.

Such as?

• doubts about the practice, the teacher, or the maps can work to slow things down.
• sexual activity (including masturbation) is a quick and easy way to relieve the pressure.
• illness (or an accident) is a way the mind can force us off the cushion (only on extreme cases will the illness be real).
• finding yourself getting angry can release some energy.
• and a myriad of other ways to blow off a bit of steam!

Anyway, thought it might be a useful addition to the discussion. Another discussion I'm finding exceptionally useful, so thanks everyone.

I'll just add, with regard my previous post on resistance, therefore wanting to gain relief from the spiritual-energy build-up created by consistent practice or retreat being a possible reason for doubt, and other things that can thwart our progress...

Although I feel this idea has merit, I also feel there are other things that can look the same.

For instance, if doubt is caused by a resistance to the (almost physical) pressure created by our practice then we may need to recognise this and push-through (by re-affirming our faith in the practice perhaps).
However, if the doubt is due to a real concern, then the answer is to seek answers and make sure we get clarification.

The trick is knowing which is the best route.

The same goes for when we suddenly start having symptoms that one would normally associate with a serious illness... Is it 'resistance' or is it the real thing?

Discernment is required.
This is where acknowledged sangha or an experienced teacher can make all the difference (I think).
Once we have an idea this type of resistance can manifest, we can experiment to learn about it and gain that discernment ourselves. For instance, when doubts come in and we feel the need to search the internet for answers (instead of sitting), then we can ask ourself "Is this doubt REALLY RELEVANT to my current practice?" If the answer is NO, then it may be resistance! Again, if we relax our practice a little and the 'illness' subsides as quickly as it appeared then we know the symptoms we manifest were probably resistance!

Obviously, as discussed in this thread, other things can be at play also. Anyone else relate to this explanation?

For me, this is another 'note to self'. If I look back at my practice notes/diary, I now see it is just a long list of:
practice - resistance - practice - resistance - practice - resistance hahaha

Chris Marti wrote: Resistance can come from doubt but it can also be different and not sourced in doubt. Resistance can be from laziness, anger, boredom, all manner of things.

I agree with this, and would add that a habit of doubt can take hold in life due to conditioning as well. It becomes a default orientation to experience. Not so much the intellectual questioning sort of doubt, but a more subtle, and pernicious doubt in experience itself. It saps confidence and is maintained by false assumptions, and often by a wall of fear. Does that fit in with your model, Colin?

Tina wrote: I know my efforts are sincere, and I am engaged in paying attention to the fullest of my ability during all activities each day. I am meditating daily, but that has not gone beyond attention to the breathing process in the whole body and being aware of whatever arises and passes during that time.

Um, pretty awesome practice!!! Maybe your expectations of what practice 'should be' and how that differs from what you are doing.. would be a worthy topic of investigation??

Chris Marti wrote: JMHO, but I think doubt is best thought of as an intellectual questioning of the reasons for, or the efficacy of, practice.

Hi Chris, I think you are correct, and this is what I mean also when mention the word 'doubt'.

Chris Marti wrote: Resistance can come from doubt but it can also be different and not sourced in doubt. Resistance can be from laziness, anger, boredom, all manner of things.

Apologies for my confusing wordplay... I didn't mean to imply that resistance is sourced in doubt. I was using the word 'resistance' as a generic word to describe a set of circumstances (causal conditions) when those conditions lead the mind into manifesting any of a number of effects, thus:

=> build up of energy/pressure (cause) => mind wanting to relieve the pressure (I called this 'resistance') => anything which slows down practice or in some way gets rid of some of the pressure/energy (effect).

I also accept I am using this word within a very narrow context (as described above) and the word 'resistance' can be used in many contexts to mean something completely different (eg: electrical components that function as 'resistance'). As a point of clarification, one source called this scenario 'distraction' or 'obstacle' and also mentioned the ego as a part of the mind involved in wanting to stay in control "because the ego cannot stand having anything done to it; the ego must be the cause and must be in control." Whereas the other teacher called it 'resistance' to something BIG about to happen.

However, you seem to be saying the cause & effect goes like this:

=> laziness, anger, boredom, all manner of things (distractions from sincere practice are the cause of) => resistance (effect???)

So I'm not sure what you mean by the word 'resistance' in the context of being the effect of distractions.

Of course, I might be reading your sentence too literally and you meant doubt can arise without my 'resistance' scenario being a part of the equation; in which case we are in complete agreement again.

Mike Ramos wrote: I agree with [Chris], and would add that a habit of doubt can take hold in life due to conditioning as well. It becomes a default orientation to experience. Not so much the intellectual questioning sort of doubt, but a more subtle, and pernicious doubt in experience itself. It saps confidence and is maintained by false assumptions, and often by a wall of fear. Does that fit in with your model, Colin?

Hi Mike
It isn't exactly my model, but it does make sense to me, and the teachers who I learned this from seem to have helped many, many people through this to high realisations or even (at least 25%) enlightenment.

What you describe makes sense also. So if someone were to get to a place in their practice where the intensity is creating the right amount of pressure to allow something big to unfold, then I might expect (from the point of view of this model) any habit of doubt (or any other habit of behaviour or thought) would be the first to manifest as a way of distracting the person long enough for the pressure to be eased (and the potential catastrophe for the ego to be averted*).

I think my own favourite habitual patterns are: exhaustion, confusion, doubts, self-doubt and frustration.

* I am not really into any model that includes an 'ego' but I'm not adverse to it either, so I refer to it here for dramatic effect! haha

Hi Chris
No worries. It was interesting to look into the model a little deeper. I also felt the notion of a 'mind, or ego, that resists' may be too suggestive of 'agency' (I think that is the correct term for 'the observer', 'the doer', even if we do not call it 'I'?). I decided the model could still work without the "mind wanting to relieve the pressure (I called this 'resistance')", in which case the term 'resistance' could be used as an umbrella term for all the distractions/obstacles created in order to relieve the pressure.

Due to personal experience, I think there is merit in the model, even though it may only be useful to the 20% or so of meditators it relates to.