end of the world stories...

So I noticed that lately the 2012 end of the world story has faded a bit as a topic of convo, and recently a new one popped up: 2025. I grew up with an end of the world story (the Russians were going to nuke us). There are thousands of end of the world stories, and they seem to have been around for thousands of years. Maybe cavemen had these stories too.

My question is, why do we love these stories so much? What need are they fulfilling? What do they give us?

I'm not very interested in their "real truth" - I'm interested in the relationship we have to them, the psychology of them.

What if the story were: the world is just going to be pretty much the same, things will change here and there, and there may be wars or droughts or whatever, just like there always have been. You will live your life going to work, raising a family, eating, sleeping, etc. and then one day you will just die a common death from old age, etc.? Would that be too boring? Do the end of world stories make us feel like life is more exciting in some way?

Thoughts? What end of world stories have you had a relationship to, and have they ever changed? How do they make you feel?

Anyone know of any good books on this topic?

Well, isn't much of religion a matter of "Creation/ Beginning of the World" stories + "End of the World" stories, with a bit of commentary on the interval between, that is congruent with the beginning and end stories. Buddhism [and Daoism] mostly doesn't get into the Beginning/End stories-- and that is unusual. Even science follows the format laid down by Christianity, with the "Big Bang" and entropy standing in for events starring humankind.

What is it writers are taught: a story must have a beginning, a middle [plot development], and an end? Seems that thinking about things without that format is mostly inconceivable; and 'I don't know' is largely unacceptable.

Clearly western culture has a very long history of "here comes the Apocalypse" type beliefs. But things like that don't persist in such volume unless they have a deep appeal. I wonder if it is as simple as the adrenaline rush - the sense of mild ongoing fear making life exciting. Similar to how some people thrive on being argumentative, because if there's no social drama going on things feel boring?

We generally like scary stories and horror movies and haunted houses - there must be some basic biology that makes fear appealing for a lot of people.

What evolutionary advantage would that offer? Bravery/courage in a fight, maybe.

Right! True. And similarly the Christian "Judgement Day" stories are meant to motivate people to repent and convert and so on.

So we are quite hard to motivate, as a species, unless threatened with death? Is that the takeaway.

That's kind of lame and pathetic.

True. I suppose if the short term adjustment required for long term positive outcomes requires some level of inconvenience or discomfort, the motivation has to be stronger. Sort of like getting serious about diet or fitness in advance of your wedding day, or because you had a health scare.

If the short term adjustment is pleasant in itself then there's no particular need for scary or "you could die" type scenarios to motivate you.

Two major reasons people like end of world stories:

1. It makes present day suffering easy to deal with, both our own and our loved ones, because it will all be over soon.
2. It makes death easy to deal with, because the world won't continue after I die. Everyone dies and it's all over and I won't miss a thing.

Plus it will give you whatever afterlife you subscribe to.

shargrol wrote: Two major reasons people like end of world stories:

1. It makes present day suffering easy to deal with, both our own and our loved ones, because it will all be over soon.
2. It makes death easy to deal with, because the world won't continue after I die. Everyone dies and it's all over and I won't miss a thing.

Plus it will give you whatever afterlife you subscribe to.

It seems sometimes #1 is tied to judgement of "the bad guys" too - the idea that all that's wrong in society is the fault of (stupid politicians/evil corporations/ignorant people/etc) and if we all die in a collapse of civilization then justice will be done. It may, unfortunately, take down everyone else, too.

And with #2 I think there may be a link to wanting a heroic death, rather than a boring death. More classy to die fighting to defend your fallout shelter than to just be an old man with a heart condition or cancer, right?

#1 could be about justice/retribution, but at it's core, I think it is about a easy to imagine idea of the future where there is no suffering. It's easier to imagine death than nibbana. If the good people die by being pulled into tractor beams of bliss and if bad people die by being torn apart by the hounds of hell, that's the whipcream and cherry on top.

#2 could be about heroic death, but I think it's more about realize that if we end suffering with the idea of death, we want insurance that everybody dies too. Everyone needs to die, otherwise there is "the fear of missing out". That's why everyone has to die. If there can be some heroic stuff, too, in the last few minutes on earth, that's the frosting on the cake.

What I'm basically saying is longing for the end of the world is a crude form of spiritual longing for awkening.

Death = no independent self
Deadness (or Heaven) = no suffering

I think when people dwell on something, keep returning to it, ponder it a lot, or otherwise are all wrapped up in it, there's a clear attachment. One can be really attached to unpleasant things, such as a conflicted relationship, social drama, fights, being scared, being anxious...
You might complain all day you "don't like" the situation, story or experience, but if you are actually getting something out of it that you do like (a thrill, a sense of purpose, a sense of urgency or meaning, avoiding change?)

Chris Marti wrote: Do people really long for the end of the world? Or do they just like to ponder stories about it? For me there is a vast ocean of difference between those two things.

"What I'm basically saying is longing for the end of the world is a crude form of spiritual longing for wakening."

I think this is called "deliverance" but I don't equate it with spirituality. To me it's like giving up.

Yes, people really long for the end of the world. I can't deny that in my own past experience. I see it in others. It is thanatos, nihlism, etc. etc. Yes, it is a way to long for deliverance. It is like giving up. But when they/I/we find an external reason why the world is going to end, it doesn't feel like giving up. It's just true.

I think it is fair to call it spirtuality because often the end of the world stuff is often wrapped up in religious/spiritual packaging.

Of course, asking if they "really" long for the end of the world is a loaded question. It's like asking were nazis "really" evil (or were they acting out of a corrupted form of compassion).

"Yes, people really long for the end of the world. I can't deny that in my own past experience. I see it in others. It is thanatos, nihlism, etc." -Shargrol

I think an underlying fear of, and disappointment with, a sense of meaninglessness is a primary reason why apocalyptic myths are so appealing to people. For example, if the Mayan people were able to successfully predict the date of the world's end, what does that say about the Mayan people? What does that say about humanity? It says there's something more to life than the day-to-day. It says there's a predetermined reason for human beings. It also makes those who are alive during the fruition of these predictions feel special, as if they are the ones who were chosen to be apart of the eschaton.

The whole thing smacks of eternalism, which usually plays back and forth with nihilism. When the end-of-time does not come to pass as predicted, people either fall into despair, or find a new date. They may even just pretend the whole thing never occurred to them and go on living their normal lives... until they are snagged by another opportunity for their lives to mean something on the cosmic scale.

So, maybe some people really want the world to end to make the suffering stop. But those people usually just try to commit suicide. Some of them succeed. However, I think it's more likely that people desperately want their lives to have meaning conferred upon their existence by a force or forces above and beyond them. I know this wish quite well, having grown up in the Foursquare church.

Well. I think nowadays it's different. Before modernity it was all about resentment, calling for judgment for "evil people", longing for an eternal world of joy, and a escapist desire that everything burns. (and I agree with Cmarti that these are signs that something is very wrong with people). All of these elements are still here today, but now we can actually by mundane means destroy human life on earth (or the conditions that sustain it), and I think we're in fact doing it - gradually - day by day. Civilizations rise and fall, there's nothing inherently mystical about it. Call me a pessimist if you want.

Personally, I feel both scared and thrilled by this prospect. Scared because I can see how dependent (of international capital / civilization) and weak many of us became, living inside the artificial environment of the city, and there's going to be a lot of chaos and suffering. The thrill comes as an impulse to find alternatives, to create resilient communities.

Civilization may not fall entirely, of course; maybe it'll just change. But as global warming (and the rest of the ongoing ecocide) start to bear fruits, things are going to get harsher. Maybe the rich will be able to keep "bubbles" of civilization, possibly even connected. Maybe social unrest will explode everywhere and burn everything. We can have severe shortage of water and/or food. Maybe nano-engineering will fix many of these problems (and create others). Anyway, there's no going back. The genie is out of the bottle.

This is, of course, very different from regular milleniarism, as I don't think "the world" will end per se, just change as always ("through creeping normalcy", citating the Baptist's Head ). Part of me hopes (I can't deny) there's some ongoing learning proccess going on, that everything is going 'according to the plan'. Still, even if this is true, It seems to me we're VERY VERY far away from even a glimpse of "universal enlightenment" (the old mystic's apocalyptic dream...) or something like that.

Chris Marti wrote: . It seems to me seriously wishing for the world to end, or wishing to end one's self, is reflective of something quite wrong.

Yup.

Ona, did you get the answer you wanted?



p.s. Chris, could I challenge you a little? Is it true that you have never wanted the end of the world or the end of you? Can you access/empathize that concept in others? The reason I ask is it seems very natural in humans, yes it can slowly or quickly turn pathological, but it seems pretty universal.

Not sure there needs to be an answer. It was just something that was on my mind, after seeing the latest date in some article about a climate tipping point. It is interesting to hear what others think.

shargrol wrote: p.s. Chris, could I challenge you a little? Is it true that you have never wanted the end of the world or the end of you? Can you access/empathize that concept in others? The reason I ask is it seems very natural in humans, yes it can slowly or quickly turn pathological, but it seems pretty universal.

I know this was directed at Chris, but I have something (minor) to say about.

I think it's normal for people to wish that their suffering (or that of others) would end, and that this may express itself through apocolyptic fantasy. Though, I think the fantasies are usually more localized; e.g. imagining what would happen if one simply let go of the steering wheel while driving down a winding road.

However normal this may be, I doubt this is the origin of the broad interest in end-of-the-world prophesies. There's a difference between "My life is meaningless; I wish everything would just go away" and "The world is coming to an end, and this must MEAN something." The latter seems more likely the case for me, being that these prophesies are almost always religious/spiritual in nature. And that includes the more naturalistic green/climatist cult

Thanks Chris, I think that's the nuance that I assumed had to be there, but which wasn't coming across in the earlier reply. It seems normal to ponder death/apocalpse, and it can be intellectually fine. The words "really" and "seriously" were throwing me off. (I assumed that if anyone really or seriously pondered this stuff they would be in an active doomsday cult or scarred/dead.)

I think I dominated this thread a bit, sorry about that. I've pondered it a lot. As a kid, end of the world thinking in adults (religious and green versions) really spooked me out and turned it into a deep intellectual investigation.

Edit: well, y'all can judge for yourself how deep it really went!