Late night, early morning, or mid-day drunk posts

It's something I usually only talk about very privately in a one-on-one context, and usually only with students for whom it is something that is arising (ie they are reaching the territory of natural renunciation and asceticism, or some life circumstance makes the territory relevant). Or with colleagues or my own teachers in a similar context, where there is a deep respect for and personal experience with the territory, and the contentiousness tends not to arise. Outside of that context, in public discussion, it tends to be a fairly useless as it quickly gets sidetracked into arguments about morality and law and culture etc which one can get riled up about all day long. Since it also can get quite personal it can be inappropriate to go into great detail in a public context.

We can see how it holds up here.

You know, we could end here because I think your last point is probably the most important. Renunciation and asceticism is quite personal. Hopefully we can all leave space for others' path in this life.

To ask an apparently non-obvious question: "What's morality got to do, got to do, got to do with it? What is righteousness but a second-hand emotion?"

Seriously-- the Founder said that there were only two commandments, as I recall. Kinda the ultimate in minimalist ethics code. Neither of those commandments mentioned sex or food or 'lifestyle.'

I think the value of putting these choices in the context of 'lifestyle' stuff rather than morality is exactly that it is different for different folks at different times. For instance, in a Vajrayana context, there is the transmutation of desire into the wisdom of discernment, which sees clearly and deeply feels what is wholesome and unwholesome,so there is a spontaneous enacting of the wholesome and dropping of the unwholesome. But this wholesome/unwholesome distinction is not tied to a lifestyle; a householder, a lay yogi, a monk or nun will all have different lifestyles with regard to sexuality even if they all have the 'wisdom of discernment'.

I assumed that I would tend to live ever more deeply from a perspectives similar to what Chris, Jake and Kate shared, which I assumed to be the "right outcome" of greater wisdom. Instead I have been drawn deep into a very traditional sort of Catholic Christian life, in a way I describe as "all-in" - that is, not an aesthetic choice or lifestyle preference or nice conceptual framework that best suits my tastes, and it doesn't much matter what you do as long as it feels right for you, but something much more pervasive, immersive and whole than that. So I'm really hardly pragmatic anymore, let alone dharma... Oh well. I'll wander off one of these days, most likely. I still like hanging with you guys, though. Some of you have been friends for ages.

But Ona-- it was YOUR religion's founder I was quoting!

He seems repeatedly to have warned about the seductions of righteousness. For me, that is the point-- not whether behavior appears to comport with "the letter" of moral law.

The main distinction I'm trying to make is how behavior looks-- that can be kinda formulaic and aligned with lists of rules-- and a deep, intuitive, and palpable alignment with Nature, with the behavior looking however it looks.

In the same way that Rumi could look forward to death as his "wedding day," I feel quite certain that for some, celibacy is celebratory, not ascetic.

In any case, we're not about to let you go quitting us!

Yeah, I actually liked someone's suggestion a while back to change the welcome page to reflect '21st Century Contemplative Practice' as the tag line for this site rather than 'dharma practice'.

I really value the diversity of voices here, and yours is a key point of diversity Ona!

Also, speaking for myself personally, I am finding myself really re-engaging with the teachings of ChNNR again in a more whole-hearted way; as I've said before I think that traditional teachings come in a whole package that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Who knows where it will go but for now I am immersing myself in them in a much more committed way than I have in a long time. The thing is, the winding road of my 'path' is just simply beyond my ability to predict or control. Time and time again I turn a corner and see a vista I never expected and it can take a while to even acknowledge the shift in motivation, outlook, whatever.

But it's nice to have a group of folks on their own unique paths to bounce things off of and I really like for that group to be diverse. So don't wander off anytime soon, Ona!

At the end of the short retreat with the IMS teacher I went to a few weekends ago we went around the room and shared any groups we sat with regularly. At the end the teacher acknowledged that going to sit with a group can feel like kind of a chore. like, 'what am I really going to get out of this that I wouldn't get out of just sitting at home?' which I could really relate to lol... Anyhow he suggested that we experiment with flipping it to 'what can I offer or bring to a group?' by showing up. It's an interesting thought experiment, one I'm sure we're all familiar with...

So I'm just going to be frank in my strong and hyperbolic way, because that's how I tend to write; and I absolutely welcome any expressions of "you are an idiot" that seem relevant. If it seems better, this stuff can be moved to my practice thread. It's a bit irrelevant to this thread.

I wrote to someone the other day, what is going on that I am barely-beginner soprano but I keep getting stuck with solos; that I can't do math but I have to do my husband's business accounting; that I have no idea what this awakening stuff is, but people keep wanting to talk to me about it; that I don't speak the language or understand the culture, but I am on the Communications committee for the parish; I am also the parish photographer and don't own a working camera. It's downright comical.

I tried talking to a few people a year or so ago when I really ran into not even knowing what this awakening stuff was anymore, and no longer understanding what people were doing in trying to wake up. The people I talked to didn't get it, and I am quite possibly deluded, an idiot, or being stubborn. I'm not talking about pretending I don't know what people mean when they say the words, or being unable to explain some practice thing someone might ask about. It's more visceral than that. It's simply meaningless. This is making it ever harder to teach. I have been frank about this [with students]- sometimes the discussion is largely about why they are talking to me, and all the deep assumptions, beliefs and intentions that embodies. It's often quite interesting conversation for both of us. I really enjoy talking to people. Sometimes I don't shut up. I listen well, too. But I have absolutely nothing to give. Literally nothing.

I describe it sometimes as like we are all in an immense elaborate eternal Bollywood movie, each of is dancing and singing, but unable to see the whole of the performance because we cannot see Eternity. We can only see our little part and the parts of the people we interact with. God is writing the script, in this Eternal Now, and we will never know what the next note or step will be. We also have no idea of what's important. Our own steps seem important. Those of the dancers we dance with as our life unfolds seem important. But like Job, if we were able to see even a glimpse of the whole of Eternity we would just have our minds blown and realize we are dust and ashes, nothing at all, dancing our beautiful sacred dances.

@Jake - you seem to have some feeling in common in regard to going "all-in" with traditional teachings. I find that interesting, as I have not met many who feel that way. I am fond of the Traditionalists (Schuon and such) for that aspect of their work. @Kate - I concur with Rumi on the wedding day!! There is that much love. My life feels consecrated to my Lord. An orthodox writer somewhere talked about becoming flame. That also resonates. In general this language of intensely devotional traditions resonates very deeply. I think that may be part of the appeal of the more traditional forms of Catholicism. There's an "all-in" kind of devotion there that isn't always found in modern Catholicism which (perhaps more here than in other countries? I don't know) seems intent on constantly taking away anything that might be difficult or unpleasant and making sure everything is happy, peppy and causes no stress or emotional discomfort whatsoever. The old liturgy self-selects for people who are more devout. So do convents/monasteries and dawn Masses. People who stumble into deeper territory tend to migrate to those places. But should the rest be left to drift along until perchance they stumble into deeper territory? Or should things be set up to point to the moon as much as possible, even if that means your knees hurt and it's too quiet and you put on special clothes and you don't eat meat and so on?

And there I've gone rambling about who knows what again. Well, I'm glad you find it entertaining. I've apparently lost engagement with this post, as I'm now thinking about refilling my tea. I do really enjoy reading posts from the people I know here, and for those who are battling with reality I am touched when they figure stuff out. If anyone ever meets someone who's gone through a similar conversion process to mine, let me know. Augustine is the one I resonate most with so far, as he had a quite intense eclectic spiritual life in a variety of traditions before converting, and he was very fiery and enthusiastic and devotional, too. Hugs.

LOL.

Back in the spirit of the true nature of this thread, a friend sent me this this morning:

You know, it's funny that people give me a hard time for all my thinking about maps... because when I hear a testimony like this, even though I haven't fully lived it myself, it simply reminds me of all the people who have said a similar things, all of them having reached a new maturity in their spiritual lives. I hear in my head Chris talking about meaninglessness, I remember different aspects of adyashanti's story, I recall Ken McLeod talking about everything disappearing and having no impetus to teach "something" to others (although he listens and responds). Life leads onward. Best wishes Ona.

Please forgive me for giving you a hard time about your maps. That's your "all-in" thing, for now, perhaps? Your art? Mappy exuberance as sacred activity!

xo

I think you're onto something, Ona-- there are all those sacred geometries, yantras and such...

www.tantra-kundalini.com/sri-yantra.htm

"The Sri Yantra is a tool to give a vision of the totality of existence, so that the adept may internalize its symbols for the ultimate realization of his unity with the cosmos.

The goal of contemplating the Sri Yantra is that the adept can rediscover his primordial sources. The circuits symbolically indicate the successive phases in the process of becoming."

We grope and stumble, or are shoved by random or purposeful others, or take a "wrong" turn and wind up God's Fools blinded by unaccountable tears-- in any case.

The Full Catastrophe is available in infinite variety. Because, why not?

Ona Kiser wrote:
I wrote to someone the other day, what is going on that I am barely-beginner soprano but I keep getting stuck with solos; that I can't do math but I have to do my husband's business accounting; that I have no idea what this awakening stuff is, but people keep wanting to talk to me about it; that I don't speak the language or understand the culture, but I am on the Communications committee for the parish; I am also the parish photographer and don't own a working camera. It's downright comical.

This is hilarious! hahaha! wow

Ona Kiser wrote: I tried talking to a few people a year or so ago when I really ran into not even knowing what this awakening stuff was anymore, and no longer understanding what people were doing in trying to wake up. The people I talked to didn't get it, and I am quite possibly deluded, an idiot, or being stubborn. I'm not talking about pretending I don't know what people mean when they say the words, or being unable to explain some practice thing someone might ask about. It's more visceral than that. It's simply meaningless.

And that sounds great! Just great. Something about what you are saying here really resonates. You may mean something completely different than I would by it and I don't even know what it means to say it's meaningless but it sure feels that way in some way to me too. Ha!

Ona Kiser wrote: @Jake - you seem to have some feeling in common in regard to going "all-in" with traditional teachings. I find that interesting, as I have not met many who feel that way. I am fond of the Traditionalists (Schuon and such) for that aspect of their work.

Yeah, the funny thing is (and I don't know if you can relate) this is definitely NOT my conscious position (to be a traditionalist). In Jungian terms it's more like a shadow thing coming up (my traditionalism). The shadow isn't bad remember- it's just not how the conscious ego thinks and feels about things. Anyhow this is like that for me. On a conscious level I wouldn't say I believe in any of the stuff that comes with the Dzogchen teachings... dakinis, demons, cosmic buddhas, wrathful buddhas, sidhis, magic, powerful Buddha fields, blessings, elements, etc. But man, does it seem to work lol. And it all fits together so beautifully. Something deep down in me responds to it so clearly, viscerally, and practically it's almost like stuff I've always known that is being fleshed out by a deeper commitment to the practices and views of these teachings. It's actually kind of scary (to my conscious self) because it undercuts so many of my official identifications. Fascinating.

Jake St. Onge wrote: ...
And that sounds great! Just great. Something about what you are saying here really resonates. You may mean something completely different than I would by it and I don't even know what it means to say it's meaningless but it sure feels that way in some way to me too. Ha!

That cracked me up.

Jake St. Onge wrote: (re: traditionalism) Something deep down in me responds to it so clearly, viscerally, and practically it's almost like stuff I've always known that is being fleshed out by a deeper commitment to the practices and views of these teachings. It's actually kind of scary (to my conscious self) because it undercuts so many of my official identifications. Fascinating.

Yes, exactly, absolutely visceral. Interesting to hear someone else express it like that. I had some very intense fear last year, but after that released I have not again - it felt as if I finally made peace with God, stopped fighting with Him in some sense.... But that sense of a visceral, embodied kind of resonance with the traditional stuff continues to grow. It may well wear off someday - I really couldn't possibly guess!