"Stuff"

I'd love to have a conversation about "stuff" as Ingram calls the habitual thinking and emotional patterns that persist despite awakening. Chris seems to talk a lot of this too: awakening allows us to see and own our "shit" much better, but doesn't necessarily make it go away with awakening. Do you folks find that as you continue your practice after awakening that the continual awareness of your "stuff" makes it disappear over time? I have found that through my practice some "stuff" has slowly gone bye-byes. But I haven't had an awakening so what is the relationship between "stuff" and awakening? What is relationship between practice and "stuff?" Wilber talks about this in terms of the "lines of development" wherein a person can be living in persistent non-duality--that is, at a high point on the spiritual line of development--but can be a moral reprobate, and thus at a low level in the ethical line. I guess my understanding is that over time all the stuff goes bye-byes if you practice diligently. So it's interesting: what is spiritual practice? Recognizing the oneness with all things while also purifying ourselves of our "stuff?" Should we distinguish "awakening with 'stuff'" from "awakening without 'stuff'"? Does having "stuff" indicate a lower level of awakening?

So many questions!

Jake2

It's interesting, I was just last night writing a little essay about dealing with our "stuff" and meditation. I think a fair number of people come to meditation because they are miserable to some degree and want to feel good. They may do meditation as a kind of solace and stress reduction technique (and certain practices can generate peaceful blissful feelings and provide quite a good deal of stress reduction and feel-goodness). They may get into a practice oriented towards awakening, and be a bit surprised that rather than being able to tune out and avoid their stuff, they actually have to look right at it and immerse themselves in it in a very intimate way. I personally think advanced practice and awakening (throughout its trajectory) provides deep opportunities to really see honestly and clearly how your stuff manifests and how your habitual reactions arise, and IF you care to take advantage of that insight, you can really let go of a lot of stuff and live from the wisdom and compassion of awakening. I've seen people apply these insights long before "abiding awakening" itself, quite early in their practices. It's not like you can really be a total self-centered ass, and then one day boom you just wake up and it all goes away. If you don't use the wisdom being revealed along the way to see through your habits, delusions, dysfunctions and so on, they will spill over quite readily. In other words, the process of awakening opens door after door to wisdom and compassion, but it is possible for a person to cling to delusions despite those doors opening, and continue to flounder or flail around despite awakening.

The more time passes the more I see the value in the aspect of traditional practices that teaches a holistic balance of moral requirements, ethical behaviors and so on, because practicing these things enhances and clarifies the insights that arise from deep meditation, and make it easier to orient yourself as your insights reveal new understanding of experience.

That's my thoughts on it at the moment.

I would say - Yes, you can awaken and still have "stuff." Here's why I think so:

My perspective on awakening is, in some ways, very developmental. That is, I think we can recognize relative stages of insight development, the same way we can recognize relative stages of cognitive, moral, worldview, and other types of development. Yes, Wilber endorses this view, and I've taken a lot from his work. But, I've also studied some of the theorists whom he borrowed these ideas, so I wouldn't say that I fully endorse the Integral view as Wilber presents it. Anyway...

One thing that's glaringly obvious about development, whenever any empirical research on the subject occurs, is that moving on to the next stage does not depend on perfectly resolving every little issue at the current stage. For example, in order to move on multiplication, one has to get pretty good at addition and subtraction. They develop a certain degree of mastery before they move on, but that doesn't mean they can make addition or subtraction errors after moving on to multiplication.

A better example comes from pscyhoanalytic object-relations theory. In this case, it's possible to resolve the oedipal complex in a less than perfect way (in fact, it's more likely than to do so in a perfect way). So, one may actually move on to have a cohesive sense of ego-identity and a functional super-ego, but still have some neurotic defense mechanisms operating when conditions line up in a certain way. This doesn't mean one is developmentally stunted, but it does mean some "regression in service of the ego" might help them resolve some of the "stuff" that got left behind.

I've heard people say that perhaps a distinction between liberation and Buddhahood should be applied to this "stuff" scenario; that is, you're only a Buddha if you don't have any more stuff, but that doesn't mean you're not enlightened. This, for me, is a moot point. I won't know if it's possible to be completely free of stuff until one day it happens for me. But I know that awakening/realization happens, and that stuff remains for most of us. And, this isn't a problem! Trying to get rid of the stuff is part of what keeps it in its place, and also part of the reason why it's more bothersome than it needs to be. So, whether or not "stuff" will ever completely fade away, the belief that one cannot be happy until the stuff is gone is bound to make one needlessly suffer.

The more you practice, and the more you wake up, the more this stuff becomes clear. We all wrestle with these questions, and it's good to do so. No amount of regular inquiry is going to get you there, so practice, practice, practice!

All of God's chillun got stuff-- 'stuff' is memories, beliefs, conjectures, misunderstandings, confusion, abortive attempts to understand that fell short of liberating clarity. Accumulating bits and bobs of more stuff is always possible; and it it is also always possible that another look at yesterday's liberating insight will reveal shortcomings requiring further investigation.

Today, I think 'liberation' is nothing more nor less than approaching this state of affairs with enthusiastic interest: 'All righty, then! Let's go!' The difference between trudging out the prison term of your life sentence, and being a flame of inspiration, is having some inkling of what a tremendous possibility it is-- 'this precious human life.'

The more time passes the more I see the value in the aspect of traditional practices that teaches a holistic balance of moral requirements, ethical behaviors and so on, because practicing these things enhances and clarifies the insights that arise from deep meditation, and make it easier to orient yourself as your insights reveal new understanding of experience.
That's my thoughts on it at the moment.


-ona

Yeah, I agree. I've been really seriously considering-- in life and practice-- the synergy that arises from balancing the ethical, calm-abiding, and insight dimensions of the path.

I think that maybe mainstream "mushroom-y" practice has emphasized the ethics and calmness and left insight by the wayside, settling for re-constructing the ignorant identity on the basis of "buddhist ethics" and half an hour of pleasant calmness every day.. Meanwhile, pragmatic dharma seems to at least give the impression of being "white powder dharma", taking the insight aspect on it's own as the "really effective ingredient" that leads, itself, to awakening-- deconstructing identification processes and seeing the impersonal and transient nature of experience-- without regard to the other components of the traditional paths, the deep peacefulness and stillness and open presence of "calm abiding" as well as the ethically positive activity that expresses deep care for all beings. There's been an imbalance of seeing awakening as either way out there, to be preceded by aeons of cultivating virtue and concentration; or seeing awakening as the really doable part, achievable without reference to behavioral parameters of the quality and balance of one's emotional life.

Our human nature is very subtle and complex, though, and it makes sense to me that a multi-faceted practice can bring forth a synergetic transformation of our whole being beyond merely seeing through the solid separate self on the one hand, or seeing our "shit" and cultivating positive qualities and activities on the other.

I dunno, somethin' like that

Yes, every waking moment (pun intended) contains the potential to see the stuff we bring to experience. "Whats the stuff I'm bringing to this party?" is a great question to ask one's self every few minutes.


-cmarti

Oh, I like this!

Sometime in the past week the question started popping up, particularly in moments of irritation and impatience, "what am I cultivating right now?". It really stops me in my tracks when it pops up. It's amazing to see how OPEN experience is; it'll go in whatever direction we cultivate. We are always practicing; experience is activity; activity becomes the seed of future activity. When there is sufficient clarity and honesty about this state of affairs, things can really open up; with this increased clarity comes increased responsibility, increased capacity to care consciously about the significance of "what I am cultivating right now". Needless to say, this has nothing to do with self-recrimination or judgmental attitudes; it's all about honesty and curiosity and authentic intent. Being authentic with regards to what the intent is in this moment... and this moment....

Jake, thanks for this!

I share your perspective, in that I find value in paying attention to what it being cultivated as much as possible. And I agree that doing this non-judgmentally is more helpful than the alternative. "Experience is activity" - yeah! I would also say, similarly, that experience is participation.

"But I know that awakening/realization happens, and that stuff remains
for most of us. And, this isn't a problem! Trying to get rid of the
stuff is part of what keeps it in its place, and also part of the reason
why it's more bothersome than it needs to be. So, whether or not
"stuff" will ever completely fade away, the belief that one cannot be
happy until the stuff is gone is bound to make one needlessly suffer." - Jackson

Yes, I think this is true. Ironically, the "stuff" doesn't even arise at the level of "just as it is" if one does not get distracted by habitual preconceptions of what *should* be happening. Any idea we have about how this moment *should* be experienced immediately distances us from what is actually being experienced.

For a very simple example, if one is stranded at the airport due to a delay, and wishes one weren't, one might be bored, even bored to the point of anger. However, if one doesn't wish things were different, there is no boredom. Then one simply sits at the airport, staring at the wall, reading a book, eating lunch, or whatever, until the flight is announced. Boredom cannot exist if one doesn't wish to change what is actually being experienced.

Does the example work for people? Trying to keep it "daily life" rather than micro-experiential.

Yes, I think this is true. Ironically, the "stuff" doesn't even arise at the level of "just as it is" if one does not get distracted by habitual preconceptions of what *should* be happening. Any idea we have about how this moment *should* be experienced immediately distances us from what is actually being experienced.
For a very simple example, if one is stranded at the airport due to a delay, and wishes one weren't, one might be bored, even bored to the point of anger. However, if one doesn't wish things were different, there is no boredom. Then one simply sits at the airport, staring at the wall, reading a book, eating lunch, or whatever, until the flight is announced. Boredom cannot exist if one doesn't wish to change what is actually being experienced.
Does the example work for people? Trying to keep it "daily life" rather than micro-experiential.


-ona

Yes, good example! The pre-condition for boredom, restlessness, anxiety etc. seems to be a simple lack of appreciation for "as-it-is"-ness, as it is presenting in momentary conditions of this very life. The lack of appreciation itself is kind of neutral, I think; just a subtle vagueness or lostness that hasn't bumped into anything yet. That "bumping into something" of basic ignorance is the shock of having expectations not met, assumptions not turn out true, and so on. That moment where the previously un-self-aware ignorance "bumps into something" (causing friction) is a golden opportunity. The options as I see them are laugh and let go, or scrunch up and struggle to maintain whatever fiction was unconsciously chugging along until it bumped into reality

"Ironically, the "stuff" doesn't even arise at the level of "just as it is" if one does not get distracted by habitual preconceptions of what *should* be happening. Any idea we have about how this moment *should* be experienced immediately distances us from what is actually being experienced." -Ona

Great reply (the whole of it).

Right now I'm with my wife at a hotel on the Oregon Coast. The mountain passes we drove over to get here were covered in snow, so we brought tire chains, extra food and water, etc. Since I was expecting snow, I knew it would be a long, slow trip that would demand close attention to the road and other vehicles. I had to pull over to put on chains, and then later again to remove them, cars zipping by me on the icy roads on both occasions.

Strangely, I was fine. I had normal levels of anxiety/arousal when such was helpful, but it didn't linger. The reason for this, I think, wasn't that I had attained something special prior to the trip. It was the accepting attitude I brought with me. It was my ability to remain interest and engaged, and to tolerate the ups and downs without clinging to mental states. In short, I was able to enjoy myself in a situation that many would find stressful, boring, or anxiety provoking, because of practice - plain and simple practice.

Now, we'll see how things go on the drive home! :-/

I offered the airport example because it was one of those that struck me, as I was doing a lot of international travel. It's actually remarkably interesting to sit for hours in an airport, as long as you aren't attached to wanting to be doing something else. Experience itself is interesting, specific phenomena can be interesting (what other people are doing, wearing, the variety of smells, changes in air temperature, the shapes of things, colors, etc.).

I only tend to disagree with your implication Jackson, that something about that change in the way you experience anxiety, for example, was simply the result of practicing a skill. I know you have articulated it before, but it really doesn't click for me at all. Perhaps, really, the more interesting question underlying my reaction to that implication is why you find that view appealing and why I don't.... hm.

I guess the short answer, as best I can articulate it on the fly, is that for me insights and changes in the way I experience things always seem to come quite suddenly and unexpectedly, so that the "result of practice" (as you might put it?) never seems to be the logical, gradual outcome of practicing, but rather some kind of out-of-left-field shock to the system, that I could not have imagined and in some cases wasn't aiming for (because I could not imagine it, so how could I aim for it or practice it?)

Perhaps our experiences have just been very different.

Happy to pursue that further, or not, as you prefer. And have a safe and fun trip! I hope it is for fun.

Cheers, Ona

Ona, I appreciate your comments very much!

I don't think my experience is that unlike yours, at least in some ways. I agree with you regarding the way the big, life-altering insights and experiential changes seem to come about. These are what I used to refer to as "quantum shifts" as opposed to the more gradual, incremental shifts that occur in practice as well.

There's a reason why I focus on "skills," and it doesn't have to do with incremental change as much as you might think. Awakening isn't something that anyone can do via direct intention. You can't just wake up in the same way that you can choose to stand up or sit down. But, I think you can use intentional actions to set yourself up for the kind of change you can't just do.

A good analogy is that of a lightning rod. Putting a lightning rod on top of your barn does not guarantee that lightning will strike it. The lightning rod does not make lightning happen. But, it does mean that if/when lightning happens, it might be drawn toward the rod you put on your barn. That's how I view practice. You do your best to get good at those things set you up for something you can't bring about on purpose.

I wrote a short article a while back called Psychological Mechanisms of Clinging and Release , where I attempted to write about this idea in different terms. The idea is that letting go happens naturally certain conditions are aligned. For example, I can learn to calm my mind, and to look at experience to clearly perceive certain characteristics about it. Doing so leads naturally to equanimity, and then to awakening; neither of which is something anyone can just do.

That said, there are minor benefits gained from getting good at skills, and those tend to be the more gradual, incremental kind. But the big changes - those we have not control over. It's fitting, really, that the biggest insights into emptiness are those which come about the release of personal control.

What do you think?

@jackson - what you say in that article and in this most recent reply seems true to me, and does not seem to have that implication I read in your previous reply. So I misunderstood and/or misremembered.

The effort vs grace paradox also twirls around in my mind quite a bit. My current analogy is you can cultivate the garden with attention, fertilizer, water, and so on. But you can't reach into the seeds and drag the sprouts out. The sprouts will come out on their own and the plants will mature in their own time if well tended...

If you don't tend to the garden at all, or tend it badly, the likelihood of the seeds sprouting at all, let alone growing into healthy plants, is far less.

Thoughts on that?

I might also add, I think that it is very useful for beginners to be totally technique obsessed and believe they can "get this done" because that is motivating and encourages strong intention. The paradox can (and will) reveal itself in its own time. I'm of mixed feelings whether it matters if people start out being confused.

I recently read back over my notes from my first meeting with my teacher. There he was spouting stuff about the process taking care of itself, not holding onto experiences, allowing everything to be as it is, etc. I wrote it all down and put it out of my mind, as it all seemed very abstract and strange. I focused instead on the specific technique pointers he gave me. "Okay, I'll do exactly this, what he said." Then months later I would re-read old notes and say "Oh! Duh. Now I see what he meant by all that other stuff." And months later again "Oh, Duh. I had no idea before. NOW it makes sense." etc.

Thoughts? (as we say...)

Ona, I'm happy that I was able to explain myself better. Although I know that disagreements between friends are OK, it feels good when shared understanding arises.



Your garden analogy is a great one. There are things a gardener can do to increase the likelihood of their seeds sprouting, and then growing to provide a substantial harvest (hopefully enough to share with their community!). Not tending to her garden will decrease the likelihood of a good harvest. But, it's not impossible for a seed to sprout against the odds.



Related to my lightning rod analogy, sometimes lightning strikes the barn even when there is no rod in place. Sometimes people just wake up. This is hard for some people to accept, because a lot of people practice tending their gardens (or placing their lightning rods) for years, without any good crops or strikes.



"I might also add, I think that it is very useful for beginners to be totally technique obsessed and believe they can "get this done" because that is motivating and encourages strong intention. The paradox can (and will) reveal itself in its own time. I'm of mixed feelings whether it matters if people start out being confused." -Ona



I'm of mixed feelings about this, too. I can see both pros and cons to this issue. On one hand, it makes to teach a view that we feel is most likely to result in the speedy cultivation of the hypothetical garden, even if that means getting one's hopes up, so to speak. But this could foster an attitude of impatience, which may lead to the novice gardener's abandonment of their project before it has a chance to bear fruit.



On the other hand, being up front about the fact that awakening is not something anyone can achieve has its own pros and cons. It may help someone relax and enjoy the process of cultivation, which would be great! On the other hand, it may lead to a sense of disenchantment, or even discouragement, and make it more likely that the would-be-practitioner never fully engages in the cultivation process.



Of course, we've all taken directions in practice that were unfortunate at one time or another. I think I'm guilty of worrying to much about people sometimes, when I think most people are able to able to navigate their way through a lot of the difficulties that arise in practice; especially when there are good teachers and spiritual friends around for support. We can be careful with our words, but I think in most cases we (and of course, I mean "I" for the most part) can trust people more, regarding their own practice.

But that opens a whole new can of worms, doesn't it? Do some teachers and spiritual friends try to micro-manage, or even baby sit, the spiritual development of their students and/or friends? Perhaps, like parenting, allowing people to get some bumps and bruises is a good thing.

That's a really tough question and one to ponder. My own teacher said sometimes watching people practice is like watching people punch themselves in the face. They inflict so much unnecessary extra suffering on themselves, spinning in stuck places, missing the obvious, trying too hard, etc. But one thing that seems true to me now is that nothing I experienced in the past - including "mistakes" and "missteps" and "fails" was without its purpose. Through every experience I learned so much. Sometimes the learning didn't arrive for years after the "mistake." This kind of integration and acceptance of all aspects of life history, experience, etc seems very important to me right now.

Thoughts? It's a complex subject, but worth exploring, I think.

This thread keeps making think of the entire idea of "progress" and "paths," etc.

Now my main contention anymore is that as long as one really "gets" that our "selfs" are not actually fixed entities but continuous creations, that things are changing/birthing/dying completely each moment and that there is no contentment ever to be found in self-centered desires -- then the capability for an entity to be free of suffering is always there, always available with no need for "growth" or "progress" or "development" or "improvement." This is what I think of as "awakening."

However, just because I said that and just because it's true doesn't mean that growth and improvement isn't necessary to live a good, peaceful life. Right? I guess what Jackson and Ona are talking about is simultaneous to but separate from "awakening." Awakening as I've described gives one the capability for peace, but it's not going to teach one how to deal with driving in snowing conditions with calm maturity that Jackson describes -- doing that takes practice, growth, effort. But, one can learn those skills (and all the other skills required for a person to be mature/cool/wise/able) without being "awake" at all, but if one is awake while learning those skills or becoming awakened while learning those skills the rewards of learning how to live will be that much greater. I think the very same skill of looking that creates awakening can also be used in daily life to just figure out mundane things.

I think at one time I thought that "awakening" came with some automatic ability to always know what to do, to always say the right thing, to always be calm, cool and collected. I am now certain that this is not the case.

That said, of course the progress leading up to awakening can be looked at as some kind of "progress" or "path," etc. but I think that actually awakening is something so random and so full of grace and luck that one person's "path" would just slow another person down. Know what I mean? One has to learn how to look, really LOOK and that can come from clear methods, instructions and teachers or from an infinite number of other causes.

So I'm not sure if Ona's teacher was talking about how it is to watch his students get awake or if he was describing their efforts to learn how to live and behave -- or both.

“That said, of course the progress leading up to awakening can be looked at as some kind of ‘progress’ or ‘path,’ etc. but I think that actually awakening is something so random and so full of grace and luck that one person's ‘path’ would just slow another person down. Know what I mean? One has to learn how to look, really LOOK and that can come from clear methods, instructions and teachers or from an infinite number of other causes.” -Mike

I can’t speak for Ona, but I think we’re on the same page, Mike; at least with regard to what you wrote in the above quotation.

I'll state my own version again:What matters is being able to perceive your stuff as clearly as you see the pen, the keyboard, the mouse, the desk. You believe your stuff is special (yes, you do) and until you KNOW it's not special you are stuck in your stuff. The arising of your stuff is totally irrelevant to awakening. How you experience your stuff is not.JMHO

-cmarti

I'd missed this post earlier.

This is really perfect and good. Though Chris might disagree, it goes along with another point I wanted to make -- that once one awakens (and sees that one's stuff is not special) it is entirely possible to make huge mistakes all day long and still live in a certain amount of clarity, light, humor and luminosity.


Edit: it's like there can be an "awakened" person who is very ordinary but capable of great happiness whose life requires no particular advanced behavior other than what works for him or her moment by moment (and required by their roles as a worker or spouse or parent, etc) while at the same time if one is part of some kind of spiritual or religious community and/or puts themselves out as a "teacher" or an advanced "expert" on awakening/enlightenment, then it would probably be a good idea for that person to pay some detailed attention to their personal development and to learn how to be well behaved, mature, good at communicating, etc. The pressure on such people must be enormous at times and I bet causes great suffering and maybe a tendency to "act out" in secret in ways that will eventually be found out.

“This is really perfect and good. Though Chris might disagree, it goes along with another point I wanted to make -- that once one awakens (and sees that one's stuff is not special) it is entirely possible to make huge mistakes all day long and still live in a certain amount of clarity, light, humor and luminosity.” -Mike



I think you're right. I would provide a word of caution, though, as this idea can have some rather unfortunate consequences if it is covertly co-opted by egoic clinging. While it's true that everyone makes mistakes, even those we consider to be awake, a slippery slope exists between equanimity and indifference, and between having a sense of humor in the midst of life and something more like amusement at the expense of life.



I rather enjoy the teachings on the "near enemies," if you can't tell.

“it's like there can be an 'awakened' person who is very ordinary but capable of great happiness whose life requires no particular advanced behavior other than what works for him or her moment by moment (and required by their roles as a worker or spouse or parent, etc) while at the same time if one is part of some kind of spiritual or religious community and/or puts themselves out as a 'teacher' or an advanced 'expert' on awakening/enlightenment, then it would probably be a good idea for that person to pay some detailed attention to their personal development and to learn how to be well behaved, mature, good at communicating, etc. The pressure on such people must be enormous at times and I bet causes great suffering and maybe a tendency to 'act out' in secret in ways that will eventually be found out.” -Mike

Mike, I get a sense from reading your posts lately that this idea – that one can be awake while still remaining very ordinary – is very important to you in a deeply personal way (and I don’t mean “personal” in a pejorative sense). You’re writing about people in general, but it feels more like you’re writing about yourself. It’s like you’re saying, “I don’t believe you have to be perfect to be awake, because I’m not perfect, but I’m awake.” Am I WAY off, or am I really picking up on this?

I’m not going all therapist on you or anything! I guess I’m curious about what this idea means to you specifically, and why it means what it does. What are the implications of this idea for your life, right now?