Attempt to explain an insight

Yes, a sort of cultivation of the garden creates the right environment for seeds to sprout sort of thing.

But you can't split the seeds open and pull the sprouts out, only keep watering and making sure there's sunlight and fertilizer and all that.

(Possibly a crap analogy... )

(Possibly a crap analogy... )

-ona

Well, duh. Crap = fertilizer, right?

Mulling this over a bit, I discover something substantive in the joke, after all: I'm thinking I've had 2 sorts of insights-- the ones that presented some sort of cognitive shift, and that encouraged me to spout off; more recently, the sort that 'makes the Baby Jesus shut my mouth and open my heart'-- as the hippie generation used to like to say. In this kind, I discover a tender and amused fraternity with fellow idiots everywhere. No praise, no blame, for all us Bozos on the bus.


-kategowen

You make me laugh.

But this points to something quite useful. How can you (anyone) possibly loathe and resent the foibles and failures of others when one has clearly seen ones own flailing foibles? Aren't we all just flapping and flailing like idiots most of the time? When by grace we aren't, it's not our doing anyway.

Well, duh. Crap = fertilizer, right?
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-awouldbehipster

At this point my nickname is LOL.

Recent culprit, a list of vitally important news items in a website sidebar:

Aging ruins your face!
More parents regretting what they name their kids!
Amazing bookcases to wow you!
Ten new and horrifying causes of dementia!

I'm spitting coffee.

I have an insight that gradually built over the weekend and really coalesced Sunday night.
The weird thing is, it's the same insight I've had off and on for over 25 years now probably -- just a little different flavor, you know? More sweet, in a way.

No way to explain it, but I'll say something about it that may make some sense:

Since I create the world I live in, including my feeling or sense of self, then I also create all my discomfort, my preferences, my expectations, my beliefs, and on and on. Whatever feeling or tone a moment has is based upon a collection of arbitrary, optional, created conditions that while meaning EVERYTHING in a way, also, definitely, mean nothing at all. Nothing. All my feelings, thoughts and everything about myself and life and others are something I built.

Now this insight isn't thought out like the above words. Those words are just my way of trying to convey something that I suddenly see or understand. And the effect of this insight is this deep feeling of freedom and relief, an immediate elimination of current anxiety or pressure -- which can and will come back of course (and, also a deeper appreciation for sights, smells, sounds, colors). BUT -- this weekend was different I think because along with it was also some kind of insight in how better to integrate this knowledge into my life and possibly sustain the freedom longer and in a higher quality form.

Now, I'm not sure if this has to be said, but all three characteristics are included in this insight.

Yes, Chris. I think that's true. It reminds me of the opening lines of the Dhammapada:

“Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

“Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.”[1]

I’m not so sure about all the talk of “impure” and “pure.” I’d like to substitute “unwise” and “wise,” or “unskillful” and “skillful” - in either case, the point is that the mind is plastic to some degree. We can change the way we approach and engage our world, and thus, how we experience our world.



[1]"Yamakavagga: Pairs" (Dhp I), translated from the Pali by Acharya Buddharakkhita. Access to Insight, 19 September 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html . Retrieved on 22 November 2011.

To me practice related insights are pretty much always about the process of perception and the workings of the mind.Thoughts?

-cmarti

How about a unitive moment when one clearly sees their lack of separation from everything else? Or is that still about perception or the workings of the mind?

I believe it is a thought afterwards, after the moment has passed.

I'm posting this here because it's a Mike Monson thread, and I think Mike Monson may enjoy it. It's a little disorganized, but that's just how it came out...

I suspect there is a strong correlation between a preference for effortful, directive meditation styles and an assumption/belief that the mind can’t be trusted. This may be an aspect of the Pragmatic/Hardcore Dharma movement’s shadow-side.

If the mind is trustworthy, what’s the harm in letting it do what it does? Why not allow it to get fascinated, caught up, frustrated, elated, passionate, sleepy, etc.? Do some think that by doing so we will simply become more deluded, and suffer more, and perhaps even go insane?

Not everyone has the psychological stability to be with the stuff that comes up when the mind is allowed to do its own thing, but I think most people do. We can be psychologically stable and still afraid, unwilling to tolerate the fear long enough to see that experience is trustworthy. Courage and fearlessness, in spirituality at least, are not qualities related to overcoming obstacles through aggression. To hold that view, one would again need to view their experience as the enemy. But it doesn’t have to be that way. In my experience, I feel much more free when I trust my experience more.

I’m going through yet another little paradigm shift, it would seem. Thinking and feeling are OK, in both regular practice and life-practice. It’s OK to not be mindful sometimes. It’s OK for states of consciousness to change. It’s OK to have an unsatisfactory experience. It’s OK to say “I” and “me” and “you” and “we”, and really mean it. It's OK to change your mind. It's OK to miss a day, or a week, of practice, if you are so inclined.

It’s OK to pass on the silent retreat in favor of the cocktail party and vice versa.

I basically think that we (including myself, if that isn’t apparent) could spend a lot less time harping ourselves, if we find that doing so is preferable.

You're right on track with where I'm coming from, Chris.

At some point after learning a skill, it becomes important not to focus on all of the rudimentary details. When the basic skills are learned, then flow takes over, and one simply becomes more responsive to the environment. But that doesn't mean that HAVE to use every rule, one after another, as things come up. Experts tend to break the rules as often as they keep them.

I like that you used the word "flow," because that's a good way to describe where practice leads after a while. The "flow" is the point, and not just some means to an end. The activity is self-reinforcing. It's rewarding just to do it. Just because. Successes are still nice, failures are still bummers. And then we play some more, because we like it.

Also, mindfulness, if one is not careful, brings on an unintentional duality. This could lead to some of what you're referring to, Jackson, when we harp too much on ourselves. There's nothing that changes the nature of the reality we live in if we go to a movie and lose ourself in that experience. Nothing at all wrong with just enjoying the movie. In fact, trying the whole time to "be mindful" will ruin the experience. I think this is also sometimes true as we observe the flow of experience. There is a point in practice when doing that is necessary, beneficial and leads to insight. There is another point in practice when that just gets in the way.
Confusing enough for you?
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-cmarti

A-AMEN! I'd add that the 'point in practice ' when mindfulness is necessary is when we don't know there's anything ELSE than heedlessly being towed along behind our careening, conditioned minds. Once there IS a clear choice-- one that we've made enough times to have established confidence-- there is the counter-problem of feeling we have no choice but to ride herd, hard, on ourselves.

It's less a matter of confusion as a challenge to our tender new self-confidence, seems to me. It takes a certain chutzpah. Unfortunately, there's a kind of priggishness to some strains of Buddhism, that can be hard to get past.

Well said, Kate!

@Jackson - "I
suspect there is a strong correlation between a preference for
effortful, directive meditation styles and an assumption/belief that the
mind can’t be trusted...

If
the mind is trustworthy, what’s the harm in letting it do what it does?
Why not allow it to get fascinated, caught up, frustrated, elated,
passionate, sleepy, etc.?..."

This is interesting. I wonder if it goes bigger than that, beyond just dharma practice I mean. I am, during a long weekend visiting a wide array of extended family from various states, many of whom I don't see often. I'm having a real curiosity about how people engage with their religious views. Some see the world as inherently untrustworthy and dangerous, and their job to ride herd hard on any poor choices, mistakes, flaws or bad tendencies in themselves ... AND in others! Others see the world as inherently flawed, but worthy of forgiveness and patience, because we've all been there done that and tried our best in difficult circumstances. These are two views I've encountered in the past several days. It makes a big difference to the individuals involved in terms of how much they suffer with life's foibles.

Also ate too much turkey.

I, too, ate to much turkey... as well as too much of nearly everything else provided, including pie and pinot noir.

And yes, I notice that in people too, Ona. I think that sometimes it's a simple matter of difference in temperaments. Some people are naturally more anxious and risk-averse than others, and they tend to be more conservative, and less trustworthy of change and/or a lack of control over self and/or other. (This has actually been correlated in some studies with a more active amygdala, which is a brain structure often linked with fear and pleasure responses. That's not to say that it's the brain's fault, since one's learning history informs the brain, and vice versa. But I digress...)

Others have more of an attitude of, "You know, things will work out." Individuals are not seen as perfect, but their intentions are viewed as generally good - until they're corrupted or deluded by the influence of the power elites, such as CEOs of big corporations, or what-have-you.

Funny how these meta-narratives can be picked out and objectified so easily these days.

Spiritual types bring these stories into their respective practices. Their not set in stone, but they can be inflexible. I'm sure some are more naturally inclined to attempt a loosening-up on their views, for the sake of the benefits involved. Not everyone has the courage, or even sees how it can be beneficial to undergo the process, by whatever means.

I hope I didn't stray too far off topic :-/ Though, we're pretty good at that here, aren't we! I know I am. Perhaps it's time to stop passively apologizing for it