not knowing

Good points guys! Ona, another possibility is that we get feedback from reasonably wise and together teachers or peers... and it's just off.

I see this sort of thing all the time in academic settings, where teachers sometimes respond with wise enough feedback within the context of their own perspective, but offer the feedback on the basis of a fundamental misunderstanding of where the student is coming from. In inverse proportion to the obviousness of the miscommunication there will likely be some vacillation of the student's confidence in their perspective, and I experienced a version of this while working with a meditation teacher online.

Bringing this back to you OP, I think not-knowing is a basic openness which is paradoxically ever-ready to encounter the unexpected, which is sensitive to mysteries, complexities, difference, and diversity. When such an atmosphere prevails between two sentient beings magic can happen.

Jake, that's very true. I have more than many times gotten suggestions and advice from very wise and respected colleagues which I mulled over, tried out, and then tossed aside as not useful to me at the moment. Sometimes the same advice suddenly became very useful at a later date, sometimes not.

Learning to trust your own instincts (or inner teacher as I tend to think of it) is not something that comes easily. It's a practice of its own, I think.

I was going to apologize for sidetracking the discussion the original poster started. But the OP was me. And I don't care. Very much enjoying the tangent.

This is definitely the cocktail party of dharma forums. Hold on... fixing a gin and tonic...

If you're going to start talking about cocktails go start another thread! Ptththththt!

lol

I suppose we could rename this place the Dharma Forum Cocktail Party...

You know? Because the dharma world sure could stand a lot more silliness.

It's been impressing me the last few days in a couple of encounters with acquaintances (both meditators and non) how much infernal suffering people inflict on themselves. The amazing levels of anxiety and fear people can live in even when there is NO DANGER at all. And even in our practice we can get into patterns of a sort of self-punishment as if we are trying to flagellate the sin from our horrible minds. It's sad. Been there done that.

My teacher once said there are times when you watch people practice and it's like watching them punch themselves in the face over and over. It doesn't have to be a kind of self-torture.

Interesting to notice today that I am having these little gloms of grief coming up sporadically.

Anyway, clearly something working itself out, and I notice I project the faint grief and disorientation, thinking about sad things I've seen. Thus the above tangent...

You know? Because the dharma world sure could stand a lot more silliness.
It's been impressing me the last few days in a couple of encounters with acquaintances (both meditators and non) how much infernal suffering people inflict on themselves. The amazing levels of anxiety and fear people can live in even when there is NO DANGER at all. And even in our practice we can get into patterns of a sort of self-punishment as if we are trying to flagellate the sin from our horrible minds. It's sad. Been there done that.
My teacher once said there are times when you watch people practice and it's like watching them punch themselves in the face over and over. It doesn't have to be a kind of self-torture.
Interesting to notice today that I am having these little gloms of grief coming up sporadically.
Anyway, clearly something working itself out, and I notice I project the faint grief and disorientation, thinking about sad things I've seen. Thus the above tangent...

-ona

God, I know what you mean. And I've been very guilty of this myself. The attitude sometimes seems to be that any time spent in silliness and humor is time not spent in serious practice -- which is uncool.

Or that fun is just to human and practice somehow is supposed to make one beyond human

now I think that if I can just approach most moments with an open light and silly attitude then that's all the freaking practice I need. I'm DONE

Done with what, Mike?

-cmarti

Practicing, effort, improvement, seeking, striving

all I'm really talking about, basically, is something very close to the soto zen concept of "no gaining idea" (read "zen mind, beginners mind" for a good explanation).

Or, as well, a sort of nondual approach to things -- having the state of mind of being done, of being complete as one is right now with no "over there" to get to, no improvement to make, no where to go, nothing to do, no one to improve.

So, I'm definitely talking about a "practice" -- it's just a practice constantly being stripped down to the simplest level, to always not know anything -- if possible. For me, lately, it's been quite a breakthrough and is creating a much happier, joyous life than I'd ever imagined. It's light, it's human, it's natural. But, for sure, a practice. I thought I'd conveyed all this at Denny's.

And, yes, if practice is something people do to make their lives better -- more open, more intimate, more joyous -- I think that a lot of times we forget that sometimes that is just available to us RIGHT NOW with no effort at all. And, if one can pull it off in a lot of moments -- then just relax and do it. Dogen said something like -- "if you want to achieve suchness, then start practicing suchness without delay." right? Be it, now, be done, now.

I love spiritual practice man. However, I have a LOT of opinions about how it is done, taught, written about, etc. some positive, some negative or critical.

from mr. fischer ( http://www.everydayzen.org/index.php?Itemid=27&option=com_teaching&topic=Dogen+Studies&sort=title&studyguide=true&task=viewTeaching&id=text-538-214 -- what I put below is from this link and is what I mean by being "done"

Then Dogen says,

If you want to attain suchness, you should practice suchness without
delay.

And here again, I have a quibble with the translator.
I think the
translation is a little misleading.
When it says, "you should practice suchness
without delay," it sounds like Dogen is exhorting us,
"Hurry up and get to it!
"Don't waste time!"
He may be saying that, but it's not quite what is meant
here, I think.
He's saying, "Practice suchness immediately."
In other words,
without mediation, without any technique, without grabbing something, or without
any kind of gradual journey to a particular destination.
When you take the
backward step, you are immediately without mediation right at that moment.
You
are immediately suchness - Buddha - things as they are, life as it is.
It's
immediate.
It's not gradual.
It's not depending on various means that mediate
the experience.
It's radically just what we are.
So if you want to practice
suchness, practice suchness instantaneously - immediately, without effort,
without step-by-step process.

And, with 788 posts all about practice and intimacy and meditation and life and how to live it it confuses me that you would wonder why this place interests me.

To be as clear as possible -- what I'm talking about IS a practice. Just as described in Norman Fischer's talk I linked to. This is nothing new or original or even unusual. It is "Practice as awakening." it is "not knowing is most intimate." it is "practice suchness without delay."

it is a continuous expression of emptiness.

It is what I mean when I say I am DONE. It's just an approach, an attitude, a way to be open and intimate and completely ready for anything to happen. It's never coming to a conclusion, never making up your mind

@Chris - It's funny (if I may butt in with random chatter) - I was at a Buddhism talk and making conversation with a woman I didn't know. I asked her what kind of practice she did, since many other people there did Tibetan or Theravada style practices. She gave me that look and said "life is my practice." I admit to silently rolling my eyes, because I'd talked to two people not too long before who used that answer as a way to say "I am too afraid to meditate, so I'm going to pretend I can just "make life my practice" and that's good enough.

Now that said, I feel from you, Mike, that you are doing a good thing for yourself with this particular new way of practicing, because you were struggling with your old way of practicing and you are clearly much happier now, judging by the tone of your posts. And you had a tough meditation practice before, so you know what it is and benefitted from it in many ways (probably some that will be apparent later, too), and aren't just hoping you can slide through life without facing reality.

Anyway, throwing that in the mix for riffing.