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sheer geekery
14 years 1 week ago #3885
by Ona Kiser
sheer geekery was created by Ona Kiser
So I've been wondering, here we are on forum(s) and email and talking to each other, and there is (naturally) a fascination with delving into complex analysis and explanations and discourse about explaining things. What exactly does this word mean? How exactly does this aspect of consciousness work? Can you define your experience of x or y using this specific terminology? Can we break down and compare this particular text or that particular teaching?
This is joyful and expressive and fun, and normal.
But I wonder if sometimes there is a drive behind it that basically comes down to this: "If I could just analyze x, y, or z sufficiently, I would gain such a profound intellectual understanding of x, y or z that I would truly experience and realize it, and it would lead to transformative insight."
I have to say that personally I have found some of the most profound "understanding" arises not from intellectual understanding at all, but from the sheer wonder of NOT understanding. Just as a very specific example, at a short retreat I attended we were given a text to contemplate. The instruction was to spend 2 hours in silence reading the text, but without any attempt to understand it intellectually. Simply to immerse ourselves in it, sit with it, spend time with it, and allow it to percolate. A specific phrase jumped out at me: "Every moment is equally worthy of mindfulness." I remember walking back and forth in the parking lot for hours, in the cold winter air, repeating the phrase over and over. Every moment. This moment? Every moment. Mindful of every? every? every single moment? Now? How? Now again? Really? Now again? Every moment? Every moment?
It did just what it was supposed to do, which was generate this state of "don't know mind." A sense of openness, wonder, and in a way utter LACK of comprehension. That state of mind is a blank slate, concepts are released, expectations and preconceptions cannot be there, the idea of effort and doing and grasping slip away. Only months later did I have an insight after which that phrase finally made sense. Of *course* every moment is equally worthy of mindfulness. So much so it cannot be explained, but only experienced. And so the innoculation of that teaching eventually took effect, percolating in the remote reaches of consciousness, working its magic. It was not an insight that could have been reached more quickly if I had had a five hour discussion on the history, linguistics and meaning of the phrase.
Not sure there's a question here so much as a ponder. Thoughts on this?
This is joyful and expressive and fun, and normal.
But I wonder if sometimes there is a drive behind it that basically comes down to this: "If I could just analyze x, y, or z sufficiently, I would gain such a profound intellectual understanding of x, y or z that I would truly experience and realize it, and it would lead to transformative insight."
I have to say that personally I have found some of the most profound "understanding" arises not from intellectual understanding at all, but from the sheer wonder of NOT understanding. Just as a very specific example, at a short retreat I attended we were given a text to contemplate. The instruction was to spend 2 hours in silence reading the text, but without any attempt to understand it intellectually. Simply to immerse ourselves in it, sit with it, spend time with it, and allow it to percolate. A specific phrase jumped out at me: "Every moment is equally worthy of mindfulness." I remember walking back and forth in the parking lot for hours, in the cold winter air, repeating the phrase over and over. Every moment. This moment? Every moment. Mindful of every? every? every single moment? Now? How? Now again? Really? Now again? Every moment? Every moment?
It did just what it was supposed to do, which was generate this state of "don't know mind." A sense of openness, wonder, and in a way utter LACK of comprehension. That state of mind is a blank slate, concepts are released, expectations and preconceptions cannot be there, the idea of effort and doing and grasping slip away. Only months later did I have an insight after which that phrase finally made sense. Of *course* every moment is equally worthy of mindfulness. So much so it cannot be explained, but only experienced. And so the innoculation of that teaching eventually took effect, percolating in the remote reaches of consciousness, working its magic. It was not an insight that could have been reached more quickly if I had had a five hour discussion on the history, linguistics and meaning of the phrase.
Not sure there's a question here so much as a ponder. Thoughts on this?
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14 years 1 week ago #3886
by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic sheer geekery
I seem to suffer from both. I recall once being completely overwhelmed by what some folks were going on about on the KFDh forums. Then just this week I posted the geekiest, most detailed and probably the most worthless analysis of meaningless nonsense every posted here.
So.... yeah.
Both.
The analytical mind likes the geek. The right brain doesn't.
So.... yeah.
Both.
The analytical mind likes the geek. The right brain doesn't.
14 years 1 week ago #3887
by Liam
Replied by Liam on topic sheer geekery
Simple: the geekery is fun. Your assumption, I would humbly offer, is that all Dhamma talk is purely for the purpose of directly cultivating panya, insight wisdom. I'd disagree. People who tinker with cars aren't trying to hurriedly fix the engine to get somewhere; they just enjoy exploring their hobbies. I'm reading the Majjhima Nikaya and the footnotes are obviously by a Sutta geek who's enjoying his writing, Bhikkhu Bodhi. I'll bet there were bhikkhus at Nalanda who loved wittering on about the technical side.
On the other hand, it's worth remembering the Buddha used lots of different ways of getting the Dhamma across to people, depending on what he thought might click with them. Who says the geeky language is anything but another way of making all this Dhamma weirdness accessible? It can be seen as another raft.
Plus, geeky tinkering with stuff sometimes produces interesting side effects and bleeding-edge style improvements - tinkering with the engine might make it more fuel efficient, or run faster. Take people's discussion of various forms of absorption that aren't in the suttas on pragmatic dharma websites- I even read the phrase 'trans-jhanic state' somewhere...
On the other hand, it's worth remembering the Buddha used lots of different ways of getting the Dhamma across to people, depending on what he thought might click with them. Who says the geeky language is anything but another way of making all this Dhamma weirdness accessible? It can be seen as another raft.
Plus, geeky tinkering with stuff sometimes produces interesting side effects and bleeding-edge style improvements - tinkering with the engine might make it more fuel efficient, or run faster. Take people's discussion of various forms of absorption that aren't in the suttas on pragmatic dharma websites- I even read the phrase 'trans-jhanic state' somewhere...
14 years 1 week ago #3888
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic sheer geekery
Yes, thus my qualifier "sometimes"...
It is quite possible that such tinkering is extremely beneficial to some people. After all we surely wouldn't have a thousand commentaries on ancient texts if there weren't plenty of monks sitting around tinkering and pondering.
But it can be, surely, as much of a trap or useless obsession as any other distraction, no? Our strengths and proclivities are often also our weaknesses. One can get super attached to ones special, lovely, cool raft...
It is quite possible that such tinkering is extremely beneficial to some people. After all we surely wouldn't have a thousand commentaries on ancient texts if there weren't plenty of monks sitting around tinkering and pondering.
But it can be, surely, as much of a trap or useless obsession as any other distraction, no? Our strengths and proclivities are often also our weaknesses. One can get super attached to ones special, lovely, cool raft...
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14 years 1 week ago #3889
by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic sheer geekery
I actually do think the geekery can be confining and that we can get stuck in it. So there is indeed a lot to be said for confusion, chaos and being comfortable with uncertainty. And in truth, I think we all have to learn to navigate through those things in order to awaken.
14 years 1 week ago #3890
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic sheer geekery
Chris, what you implied earlier is perhaps a good point - that if someone like you can "talk both ways" - that is, enjoy a good geek-out now and then, but also just talk plainly about experience, or explain something very simply for someone who can't understand the geekery, then that is a nice balance. If you, on the other hand, were unable to do anything but intensive geekfest any time I asked you a question, I would be a bit concerned for your sanity. Reason a good tech team includes a lead developer who can interface between the coders and the project manager, who then interfaces with the client, each layer simplifying the discourse so it can be understood by a different audience. Learned on day one of a new job: never let the junior developer speak directly to the client. Client likely to die of brain failure.

14 years 1 week ago #3891
by Liam
Replied by Liam on topic sheer geekery
Point happily taken.
Yes, thus my qualifier "sometimes"...
-ona
If carried out in the wrong way, sure- I've recently caught in myself moods in which I'd much rather read about Dharma, which can be exciting and soothing and interesting than actually do the tougher thing of looking at my own experience. When I'm deliberately giving myself a break though - newbie finds this all a bit exhausting - then a bit of geekery is fun and still beneficial, as you say...
But it can be, surely, as much of a trap or useless obsession as any other distraction, no?
-ona