Ruthless Truth

As far as I have experienced, this kind of direct pointing method is not unusual - it is an old practice, such as found in Indian Advaita traditions, and not dissimilar to some kinds of koan work in Zen. It may be exactly the right method for some, not a good fit for others. Personally I think direct pointing is more useful in the later stages of practice, after one has destabilized things a good bit with meditation and has already started to wonder where the heck this "me" is, since everything seems to be happening by itself.

I've attended some sessions with teachers who use this type of method (though not in such a hostile/aggressive way) and it provides some very interesting ways of exploring your perceptions, delusions and so on.

But honestly I think that there is no need to believe that any method - from Sufism to Direct Pointing to Tibetan Buddhism to Hardcore Dharma or whatever - is the One True Method For All People. People tend to be quite excited about whatever worked best for them, and want to share it with others. That's okay, but doesn't mean that what was best for them will be best for you.

ETA: there are times when a teaching can be very effective if it makes you a little mad, too - a good teacher will see when the time is right and throw you a question that frustrates you, for example. That again doesn't mean that's the best way to teach all people all the time.

ETA: just my ten cents, your mileage may vary.

I'm not a fan.

Alan Chapman wrote a critique of the RT "movement" (if I dare grace its existence with such a description). It's worth reading...

Ruthless Indirect Knowledge of a Poor Grasp of Not-Self

I find the approach shallow and less than wise. It's a poor excuse for direct pointing, in my opinion. I don't think they're churning out liberated beings. Anyone can look at their experience and say, "Oh, I can't find a self anywhere." That isn't awakening in my view.

-Jackson

You think you're free but you act like a little vagina wart. Fuck off back to the old folks home and talk about the war, let the new generation clean up the shitty mess you fucktards left behind. You had your chance in the 70s hippy. should have taken it
This is on the first page from the first thread that I clicked on. The poster in question is a red name, which means they are a 'liberator'—the bodhisattva, the trans-arahant. Is this what they mean by unconventional methods and strong language? Is 'nuh uh, you say you're enlightened but you're not, suck a dick!' the equivalent to a koan pinky-severing?

It also seems like this is the intersection of the hardcore dharma communities and, very unexpectedly, the PUA (pickup artist) communities. Which is so bizarre and kind of adorable that I'm sort of feeling some goodwill for these guys now.

lol

Yeah, they certainly have woven a funny cultural cloth around their movement. Well, funny from the POV of most dharma groups, but I've had sets of friends who talked like that for sure. Although then again with them the point of such language was to try to get everyone else to laugh, not to hurt feelings or bully.

I don't know what I think about RT, and I'm comfortable with the ambiguity of my various impressions. On the one hand, I think some people are indeed just being brow beaten into changing their language use rather than awaken. I guess that's the potential drawback. But as you point out Ona, if someone is ripe-- whether through meditation or just everyday experiences-- this could be just the thing for them. All in all I'd say the rude language is not going to contribute much to the process; what's good about it could be boiled down to the method of just being constantly re-directed from coarse and subtle presuppositions of separate solid selfhood to a moment of direct looking, in which no such thing is found.

When all those threads were proliferating on another forum, I thought: "hmm, I wonder what my experience is in this regard? (in terms of what I may be taking for granted as a solid, separate self)" and it prompted me to take a closer look to see what sort of felt-self I found taken for granted in my own experience.

I immediately noticed that sensations in the heart-area definitely presented as a sort of centerpoint/knot and also noticed in that moment that those sensations were just the same as the rest, and no more a solid separate "self" than any of the more coarse mental-emotional formations I had earlier debunked in my practice as candidates for a solid separate self. And although it didn't seem particularly earth shattering, and in fact in the next moment I just sort of shrugged and was like "aha, funny I had been kind of holding that bit back, huh?", it seems in the ensuing months to have been a subtle but somehow significant turning point in my practice. Again, I can only shrug. But I have to admit I found my tangential encounter with those threads pretty meaningful-- surprisingly so. What do I know though?

Isn't the truth/ dharma/ actuality 'ruthless' enough in its impartiality/impersonality that acting-out the rudest impulse is kinda 'gilding the lily'-- with shit?

Lately, all the teachers that I respect have been saying-- independently, and citing their own disparate teachers-- that the best practice is to be kind. It's the simplest, the readiest, the hardest to make a mistake with, and has the longest lineage.

My terribly unskillful, slightly tipsy self is getting the urge to see how quickly I could get myself bumped up to blue if I joined this website and started calling people ulcerated vaginas and insisting that I don't really exist.

At the end of the day, though, this is all totally academic, because if indeed liberation only exists in a version so limited that you can achieve full release and still act like a flaming asshole online to more or less complete strangers, then I'm obviously in the dharma game for liberation-plus. If that is the end-state that's identical with whatever was achieved by the Buddha and by the teachers of my tradition, then obviously I am looking for liberation in addition to general moral aedification and self-improvement. Hell, if being able to reform my aggressive, dickish tendencies is counter to the process of enlightenment, then I'll stick around in ignorance for a couple more lifetimes.

As the person responsible for inviting RTers to the DhO:

The method: I've done direct pointing via chat with a couple of people (using my own vocabulary which you know from my posts). It seems that it was useful to them. My impression is that by having not-self pointed out by someone else, a person can become unstuck from whatever place they may be stuck at the moment. I don't for a moment believe the "people are realizing full enlightenment by having their nose rubbed in not-self" propaganda. But it's useful, and certainly powerful. I share Ona's opinion that it's not for everyone, or for every situation.

The RT community: in terms of the DhO/KFD/MCTB maps: lots of dark-nighters in missionary mode, is my guess. Small wonder - many of them probably crossed the A&P having not-self pointed out to them. But because they are in a community dedicated to honesty, my next guess is that they will be making progress nonetheless, because noticing not-self consistently and relentlessly is strong practice.

As for myself: I got a lot out of reading Ciaran's "Thunder and Sunshine" blog post. So much, in fact, that I it motivated me to have one more systematic examination of the perceptual patterns implying something out of the ordinary to call my own, or my self, and that did it there and then to dispel that sense of ownership or identification regarding those patterns, to my great and so far unending relief.

Cheers,
Florian

P.S. the "flaming enlightened asshole" discussion can be surprising at first, but it's definitely not unknown to people posting here. If you are looking for a way to exhibit agreeable behaviour at all times without, you know, *doing* anything for it to be so, then you're in for a rude awakening.

P.P.S. Alan's post is a great read. There were some good comments there, too, which are not available at the moment, unfortunately.

Isn't the truth/ dharma/ actuality 'ruthless' enough in its impartiality/impersonality that acting-out the rudest impulse is kinda 'gilding the lily'-- with shit?
Lately, all the teachers that I respect have been saying-- independently, and citing their own disparate teachers-- that the best practice is to be kind. It's the simplest, the readiest, the hardest to make a mistake with, and has the longest lineage.

-kategowen

It would be great if some really super sweet, unconditionally loving people would start a movement called "Unrelenting Kindness" and have an online forum in which it was constantly pointed out how awesome it is to be kind and loving to each other.

...As for myself: I got a lot out of reading Ciaran's "Thunder and Sunshine" blog post. So much, in fact, that I it motivated me to have one more systematic examination of the perceptual patterns implying something out of the ordinary to call my own, or my self, and that did it there and then to dispel that sense of ownership or identification regarding those patterns, to my great and so far unending relief.
...


-florian

Just to point out how random the trigger can be, I know people who have had the same sort of moment of realization staring out the window (more than one, if I recall) walking on the beach, folding laundry, or reading damnyouautocorrect.com or other things unrelated to actually reading or hearing a teaching or being in the act of meditating or other proper practice sorts of things.

Just to ponder, since our inclination tends to be "I realized xyz while doing this/that, so you should try it too!"

It would be great if some really super sweet, unconditionally loving people would start a movement called "Unrelenting Kindness" and have an online forum in which it was constantly pointed out how awesome it is to be kind and loving to each other.


-michaelmonson

Hi Mike - awesome idea, really.

Just to point out how random the trigger can be, I know people who have had the same sort of moment of realization staring out the window (more than one, if I recall) walking on the beach, folding laundry, or reading damnyouautocorrect.com or other things unrelated to actually reading or hearing a teaching or being in the act of meditating or other proper practice sorts of things.

-ona

Well, the moment of realization was a bit after my systematic look at those patterns, while staring at the inside of a toilet stall door. For sheer grunge aesthetic, that completely beats folding laundry and sweeping leaves. That's the true seat of the Buddha.

Just to ponder, since our inclination tends to be "I realized xyz while doing this/that, so you should try it too!"

-ona

I think you should all try Magick.

Cheers,
Florian

Aha! The toilet door is perfect. Next retreat topic: why toilet stall doors are the key to awakening.

Toilet doors are the gateless gate.

Cheers,
Florian

This thread is going down the drain...

Courtesy flush, please!!!!