Something and nothing

That said, the way I was understanding the trajectory of this thread was that it revolved around this: we all agree that meditation is a practice which can lead to experiencing and understanding that our sense of being a solid self, separate and individual, is an illusion and that the sense of self arises and passes away as clusters of perceptions and thoughts, just like all conditioned phenomena arise and pass away.

However, the question was, is it possible for some people to experience the sense of self ceasing to arise altogether, ever, and if so, is this a) a natural deepening of understanding that may happen to some people b) a fruitless and weird goal that is a rejection of our relative experience c) something one can't comprehend unless it is experienced d) something the Buddha said should be the ultimate perfection of enlightenment e) insert other conclusion or opinion here.

And then we started looking for quotes from various teachers that pointed to a,b,c,d or e being the "right" answer, and it became evident that there is a range of views, depending on who the teaching is being directed at, the larger context of the teaching, the specific tradition/view of the teacher, what one hears in the teaching (which depends on one's own experience) and so on.

Does that more or less sum it up?

When I started this thread, it was a question based upon a wrong assumption on my part that the rest of you would agree that the idea to permanently rid oneself of a self sense was a completely divergent idea from real dharma. My question, then, was why is this happening? Are some people perhaps too attached to emptiness/cessation that they just can't or won't deal with the inevitable difficulties of actually being a person in the world?

To my surprise the conversation didn't go there and I found that some of you did not share my point of view on this. I admit that it took me a while to figure this out.

Now, maybe the subject of this thread is now as ona describes it. And if ya'll want to have that discussion, great.

I guess I could be rightfully accused of being rigid or close-minded on this and I'll take responsibility for that. I don't believe that separate human entities should or can permanently lose their sense of being in the vital and real relative world. In a way I can't seem to explain the question itself contains its own answer.

To me it's like a person discovering that movies are made up of individual photographic stills and then arguing that, because of that fact there is no movie.

I guess I could go on and on about this.

So, if anyone wants to talk about my original question - great. If you want to explore how to rid yourself of a self and have constant compassion and peace - do it.

Mike said: "To me it's like a person discovering that movies are made up of
individual photographic stills and then arguing that, because of that
fact there is no movie."

Isn't the conclusion perhaps then that exactly both are true at the same time? There is a) no movie, just a series of still pictures at high speed and b) the experience of a movie.

" I think maybe the active/aggressive part of what some people practice is bothering you" -Chris

Chris - myself I am of two minds about this. There does seem to be a rather aggressive "get 'er dun" approach by some that seems at odds to me with how I feel and how i experience practice. I tend to feel that way about the very effort-driven hardcore noting practice some people discuss, also, for example. HOWEVER, at certain points in my practice, I had a very effort-driven intensive practice, too, so just because it's not how I am currently practicing does not mean it is not relevant for others, whether as an ongoing method or as a phase of practice they are currently in.

It's also worth considering that some people write in a way which is rather blunt and to the point, or even clumsy and gruff, and does not necessarily accurately reflect their experiences. So it can be very hard to judge how a person's actual day to day experience feels based on the brief summary paragraph they jot on a forum, and it may give the impression of a very driven or aggressive practice that is not actually like that.

I think, for instance, of a very graceful and subtle master horse trainer I watched teach for many months. His riding was beyond beautiful. Yet when he taught, he only shouted abrupt and harsh sounding critiques and suggestions which to my mind did little to convey how he actually experienced riding, based on watching him ride. His explanatory skills were not on the same level of subtlety as his practice. I learned far more by ignoring what he said and simply watching how he *did*. Unfortunately with meditation that is not possible.