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Lost in secular land?
14 years 3 months ago #2777
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Lost in secular land?
Jackson - that is immensely more clear. I think I actually get what you are saying this time. Thanks for taking the conversation deeper/higher/broader/better. 
It is a real pleasure exploring like this.
It is a real pleasure exploring like this.
14 years 3 months ago #2778
by Jackson
Replied by Jackson on topic Lost in secular land?
Ona - oh, good. I'm glad I was able to clear that up a bit.
I really wish we could all get together for a day and talk about this stuff in person. Ian Reclusado (a member of this forum) moved to my area recently, and has come to lunch at my office a few times. Though we only have about a half-hour to talk dharma, it's really rewarding to be able to do so in person. I love the internet for bringing us all together. I only wish it was easier to take all of our interactions to another level.
I really wish we could all get together for a day and talk about this stuff in person. Ian Reclusado (a member of this forum) moved to my area recently, and has come to lunch at my office a few times. Though we only have about a half-hour to talk dharma, it's really rewarding to be able to do so in person. I love the internet for bringing us all together. I only wish it was easier to take all of our interactions to another level.
14 years 3 months ago #2779
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Lost in secular land?
Me too - it was a great joy for me to meet with some of my internet peeps back in May, live and in person. I hope to keep doing that, as travel and time allow. You are west or east?
So more ponders on the community metaphor. You said:
"Let's say "enlightenment" is like a community. When you first visit the
community, you meet some really great people. These people behave in
certain ways, and you begin to associate the people with the community
of enlightenment. But, the more time you spend in the community, the
more you meet different kinds of people with different characteristics.
Each person isn't necessarily more enlightened than another. But, when
you're in the community called "enlightenment", you tend to know where
you are."
So going with this, can one also say that once one has visited this community often enough to recognize it as "someplace" at all (because until one has been there a few times, it is like some place in the Phantom Tollbooth, that one can't really "find" deliberately) one then tends to see that it actually is not defined by any boundaries, but is both everywhere and nowhere?
Or is that getting way too twisted into this metaphor?
So more ponders on the community metaphor. You said:
"Let's say "enlightenment" is like a community. When you first visit the
community, you meet some really great people. These people behave in
certain ways, and you begin to associate the people with the community
of enlightenment. But, the more time you spend in the community, the
more you meet different kinds of people with different characteristics.
Each person isn't necessarily more enlightened than another. But, when
you're in the community called "enlightenment", you tend to know where
you are."
So going with this, can one also say that once one has visited this community often enough to recognize it as "someplace" at all (because until one has been there a few times, it is like some place in the Phantom Tollbooth, that one can't really "find" deliberately) one then tends to see that it actually is not defined by any boundaries, but is both everywhere and nowhere?
Or is that getting way too twisted into this metaphor?
14 years 3 months ago #2780
by Jackson
Nice expansion. I think what you're saying is implied in the metaphor, so long as we don't think that "community" means some specific geographical location. I that's why the "up the mountain, than down the mountain" metaphor can be useful. As well as the whole "hero's journey" idea, where someone goes on a quest, finds something great, and then brings it back to their home land to share with others. The "community" of awakening is not tied to a specific time or place. It is simultaneously unbound AND recognizable when distinguished from behaviors that are not in sync with it. Even that's a difficult thing to describe, so I won't even try right now. I guess in some ways it's like the Kingdom of God, being "in our midst."
Replied by Jackson on topic Lost in secular land?
So going with this, can one also say that once one has visited this community often enough to recognize it as "someplace" at all (because until one has been there a few times, it is like some place in the Phantom Tollbooth, that one can't really "find" deliberately) one then tends to see that it actually is not defined by any boundaries, but is both everywhere and nowhere?
Or is that getting way too twisted into this metaphor?
-ona
Nice expansion. I think what you're saying is implied in the metaphor, so long as we don't think that "community" means some specific geographical location. I that's why the "up the mountain, than down the mountain" metaphor can be useful. As well as the whole "hero's journey" idea, where someone goes on a quest, finds something great, and then brings it back to their home land to share with others. The "community" of awakening is not tied to a specific time or place. It is simultaneously unbound AND recognizable when distinguished from behaviors that are not in sync with it. Even that's a difficult thing to describe, so I won't even try right now. I guess in some ways it's like the Kingdom of God, being "in our midst."
- Dharma Comarade
- Topic Author
14 years 3 months ago #2781
by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Lost in secular land?
Does anyone have an opinion about Lori's reply to me that I posted this morning? "Stealth dharma?"
14 years 3 months ago #2782
by Jackson
Replied by Jackson on topic Lost in secular land?
For one thing, it sounds like Lori is being very intentional with how she is running the course. I can't fault her for that.
What's your opinion?
What's your opinion?
- Dharma Comarade
- Topic Author
14 years 3 months ago #2783
by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Lost in secular land?
My opinion?
Huh.
Besides the fact that she really does talk too much I like her.
I don't really like the whole "stealth dharma" idea and the "stress reduction" mindfulness emphasis. It's not what I'm looking for but she is certainly free to teach that if she wants. I'd prefer an intro to the whole "spirit rock" vipassana teachings as explained on their website.
I've already replied to her reply and she has replied to that -- with some good vipassana instruction on how to deal with my reactions to all of this. I think I might keep up with the class.
Fun/weird night at the zen sangha last night. Great first hour of zazen, walking, zazen, chanting/bowing followed by a weird ass lecture by one of the priests. I wanted to just shout out "what the fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!????" but that seemed lacking in sangha etiquete. I still don't know what to do with my lack of confidence in the two priests dharma understanding and skills. But so far, I think I should try to keep quiet.
Monday is my 55th birthday.
Huh.
Besides the fact that she really does talk too much I like her.
I don't really like the whole "stealth dharma" idea and the "stress reduction" mindfulness emphasis. It's not what I'm looking for but she is certainly free to teach that if she wants. I'd prefer an intro to the whole "spirit rock" vipassana teachings as explained on their website.
I've already replied to her reply and she has replied to that -- with some good vipassana instruction on how to deal with my reactions to all of this. I think I might keep up with the class.
Fun/weird night at the zen sangha last night. Great first hour of zazen, walking, zazen, chanting/bowing followed by a weird ass lecture by one of the priests. I wanted to just shout out "what the fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!????" but that seemed lacking in sangha etiquete. I still don't know what to do with my lack of confidence in the two priests dharma understanding and skills. But so far, I think I should try to keep quiet.
Monday is my 55th birthday.
14 years 3 months ago #2784
by Jackson
Replied by Jackson on topic Lost in secular land?
So then, your main issues with the way Lori is teaching are: (1) It isn't really what you're looking for; and (2) it doesn't quite match what you thought was being advertised when you signed up for it. Yeah?
I don't find the idea of "stealth dharma" all that unappealing in some contexts. I know I'll probably have to use a fair amount of stealth dharma when I'm practicing therapy. There are so many wonderful practices stemming from the larger buddhist tradition that it would be a shame for someone to miss out on the benefits due to how they are presented. If secularization helps someone learn something beneficial (i.e. helps them overcome a mental "block" to even trying it), than I say "Huzzah!"
BUT, I would be disappointed, too, if I thought I was going to be learning something more Buddhist-centered, only to discover the lessons to be somewhat watered down and... well... not as interesting or helpful to me.
I don't find the idea of "stealth dharma" all that unappealing in some contexts. I know I'll probably have to use a fair amount of stealth dharma when I'm practicing therapy. There are so many wonderful practices stemming from the larger buddhist tradition that it would be a shame for someone to miss out on the benefits due to how they are presented. If secularization helps someone learn something beneficial (i.e. helps them overcome a mental "block" to even trying it), than I say "Huzzah!"
BUT, I would be disappointed, too, if I thought I was going to be learning something more Buddhist-centered, only to discover the lessons to be somewhat watered down and... well... not as interesting or helpful to me.
- Dharma Comarade
- Topic Author
14 years 3 months ago #2785
by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Lost in secular land?
Yes and no.
I think this discreet class matches your one and two above. However, I'm still considering showing up for the rest of the class, going to more day longs, going to the new Sunday group if she starts it, continuing to engage with her in some ways.
I'm open and still intriged.
I think this discreet class matches your one and two above. However, I'm still considering showing up for the rest of the class, going to more day longs, going to the new Sunday group if she starts it, continuing to engage with her in some ways.
I'm open and still intriged.
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14 years 3 months ago #2786
by Jake St. Onge
Replied by Jake St. Onge on topic Lost in secular land?
interesting convo guys 
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14 years 3 months ago #2787
by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Lost in secular land?
I think there are a few common markers of awakening:
1. The ability to examine one's own "shit" objectively, to in essence be very self-aware of one's behavior, thoughts, emotions and actions and to do so generally with moment to moment, real time awareness.
2. The realization, whether momentary or permanent, of non-dual awareness. This is essentially the recognition of the weird either/or/both (relative/absolute) nature of experience as we perceive it accompanied the recognition that how we choose to perceive it is part of the equation.
3. The recognition of what humans usually perceive to be the permanent self as impermanent, non-continuous and "generated" moment by moment by causes and conditions.
4. The recognition of the playing out of co-dependent origination as the source of consciousness and the accompanying recognition of the nature of subject/object as a mental construct, a process that plays out over and over and over in rapid succession.
5. The recognition of emptiness as the underlying fabric of "things"
YMMV, of course, but I'm putting these out there for conversation's sake.
1. The ability to examine one's own "shit" objectively, to in essence be very self-aware of one's behavior, thoughts, emotions and actions and to do so generally with moment to moment, real time awareness.
2. The realization, whether momentary or permanent, of non-dual awareness. This is essentially the recognition of the weird either/or/both (relative/absolute) nature of experience as we perceive it accompanied the recognition that how we choose to perceive it is part of the equation.
3. The recognition of what humans usually perceive to be the permanent self as impermanent, non-continuous and "generated" moment by moment by causes and conditions.
4. The recognition of the playing out of co-dependent origination as the source of consciousness and the accompanying recognition of the nature of subject/object as a mental construct, a process that plays out over and over and over in rapid succession.
5. The recognition of emptiness as the underlying fabric of "things"
YMMV, of course, but I'm putting these out there for conversation's sake.
14 years 3 months ago #2788
by Jackson
Replied by Jackson on topic Lost in secular land?
"2. The realization, whether momentary or permanent, of non-dual awareness. This is essentially the recognition of the weird either/or/both (relative/absolute) nature of experience as we perceive it accompanied the recognition that how we choose to perceive it is part of the equation." [Italics mine.]
Thank you for taking the time to explain what you mean by "non-dual awareness." This is a good working definition.
Thank you for taking the time to explain what you mean by "non-dual awareness." This is a good working definition.
- Dharma Comarade
- Topic Author
14 years 3 months ago #2789
by Dharma Comarade
1. I have this off and on, more on lately as I practice with vigor and enthusiasm.
2. I'm really not sure I understand this.
3. I've recognized this a lot, but can lose sight of it when I don't practice.
4. Barely, just barely.
5. Seems pretty clear.
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Lost in secular land?
I think there are a few common markers of awakening:
1. The ability to examine one's own "shit" objectively, to in essence be very self-aware of one's behavior, thoughts, emotions and actions and to do so generally with moment to moment, real time awareness.
2. The realization, whether momentary or permanent, of non-dual awareness. This is essentially the recognition of the weird either/or/both (relative/absolute) nature of experience as we perceive it accompanied the recognition that how we choose to perceive it is part of the equation.
3. The recognition of what humans usually perceive to be the permanent self as impermanent, non-continuous and "generated" moment by moment by causes and conditions.
4. The recognition of the playing out of co-dependent origination as the source of consciousness and the accompanying recognition of the nature of subject/object as a mental construct, a process that plays out over and over and over in rapid succession.
5. The recognition of emptiness as the underlying fabric of "things"
YMMV, of course, but I'm putting these out there for conversation's sake.
-cmarti
1. I have this off and on, more on lately as I practice with vigor and enthusiasm.
2. I'm really not sure I understand this.
3. I've recognized this a lot, but can lose sight of it when I don't practice.
4. Barely, just barely.
5. Seems pretty clear.
14 years 3 months ago #2790
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Lost in secular land?
Mike, btw, I thought Lori's answer was thoughtful and useful. No opinion beyond that, as it is your call whether that makes you feel more interested in her teaching.
Chris - interesting list. I feel like I want to rephrase some of it, but need to ponder further.
Chris - interesting list. I feel like I want to rephrase some of it, but need to ponder further.
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14 years 3 months ago #2791
by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Lost in secular land?
Please add/edit/delete as you see fit. I really do think there is commonality to what we call enlightenment or awakening among people so it'll be fun to exchange ideas about what those common elements are. I threw that list together quickly but it's a start.
14 years 3 months ago #2792
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Lost in secular land?
I'll throw out one thing I'm pondering, and maybe you all have some thoughts on it.
Where in Chris's list does the sense of "nothing to do, nowhere to go" come in?
That seems to me like such a big deal, that sense of not doing and nothing to be done. "There is only Divine Will manifesting" is another way I might say it. Maybe those sort of relate to 3 & 4.
Where in Chris's list does the sense of "nothing to do, nowhere to go" come in?
That seems to me like such a big deal, that sense of not doing and nothing to be done. "There is only Divine Will manifesting" is another way I might say it. Maybe those sort of relate to 3 & 4.
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14 years 3 months ago #2793
by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Lost in secular land?
That's a good one but let me get some clarification before I can add it to my personal list:
I can recall a point at which I was absolutely flummoxed in a really significant way because I had spent many years and tons of energy on a "journey" that ended up putting me right back where I was in the first place but with a different view. I was teed off that there really was no journey at all. I thought I'd gone way out there only to find out there was really nowhere to go in the first place. The "room" I experienced had all the same furniture it always had but I was perceiving it differently. It was intimately familiar, but not the same.
Or, are you referring the feeling of not having anything further to do - that the "journey" is over, done, complete, final? Nowhere to go, so to speak?
Which are you're referring to Ona?
I can recall a point at which I was absolutely flummoxed in a really significant way because I had spent many years and tons of energy on a "journey" that ended up putting me right back where I was in the first place but with a different view. I was teed off that there really was no journey at all. I thought I'd gone way out there only to find out there was really nowhere to go in the first place. The "room" I experienced had all the same furniture it always had but I was perceiving it differently. It was intimately familiar, but not the same.
Or, are you referring the feeling of not having anything further to do - that the "journey" is over, done, complete, final? Nowhere to go, so to speak?
Which are you're referring to Ona?
14 years 3 months ago #2794
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Lost in secular land?
Both. To the first, definitely yes. To the second, yes, but with a nuance, perhaps? That is, where else is there to go? There is only just this, now. And yet over time a sense of an ongoing settling or spreading, like water gradually percolating into the ground after the end of a storm. But the sense of being on a journey, needing to be "going somewhere," gone; the sense of needing to do anything to get anywhere, gone. Is that distinction useful?
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14 years 3 months ago #2795
by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Lost in secular land?
Mike, do you have Lori's permission to post private correspondence with you on this very public forum? Can you please make sure you do? It's important that we follow commonly accepted netiquette in cases like this. I don't think any of us would want to discover that our personal e-mails, ones we believed to be private and just between the original correspondents, were being posted publicly without permission.
Thanks, man.
Thanks, man.
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14 years 3 months ago #2796
by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Lost in secular land?
Shit, you are right. I'm sorry -- can you delete?
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14 years 3 months ago #2797
by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Lost in secular land?
"There is only just this, now."
Yep, Ona, I would add this to the list, very definitely a keeper!
Yep, Ona, I would add this to the list, very definitely a keeper!
- Dharma Comarade
- Topic Author
14 years 3 months ago #2798
by Dharma Comarade
Replied by Dharma Comarade on topic Lost in secular land?
I'm not used to thinking about that sort of thing, plus, I forget that it is PUBLIC.
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14 years 3 months ago #2799
by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Lost in secular land?
Mike, yes, I deleted your last post at your request as it was originally meant to be private correspondence.
14 years 3 months ago #2800
by Ona Kiser
Replied by Ona Kiser on topic Lost in secular land?
Okay, one more then Chris: "Everything is perfect just as it is." That is, whatever might arise, whatever one experiences right now, is just as it is and perfectly so. There is nothing lacking in it, it does not need to be other than as it is. Perhaps this is a sort of deep equanimity? So that even pain or anger or grief that might arise as a natural body/mind response to some action (dropping a brick on your foot, etc.), and the subsequent natural response of letting out a shriek of pain, is somehow perfect, just as it is. "Problems cease to be problems."
Again, this may be sufficiently implicit in some of your existing points, or may not be relevant to some people, or may be too clumsily worded to make sense.
Thoughts?
Again, this may be sufficiently implicit in some of your existing points, or may not be relevant to some people, or may be too clumsily worded to make sense.
Thoughts?
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14 years 3 months ago #2801
by Chris Marti
Replied by Chris Marti on topic Lost in secular land?
I agree with that, too. My wording would be "nothing to take away, nothing to add, everything is always complete" -- or something like that -- but I certainly "know" the experience of it.
So, here's the revised list:
1. The ability to examine one's own "shit" objectively, to in essence be very self-aware of one's behavior, thoughts, emotions and actions and to do so generally with moment to moment, real time awareness.
2. The realization, whether momentary or permanent, of non-dual awareness. This is essentially the recognition of the weird either/or/both (relative/absolute) nature of experience as we perceive it accompanied the recognition that how we choose to perceive it is part of the equation.
3. The recognition of what humans usually perceive to be the permanent self as impermanent, non-continuous and "generated" moment by moment by causes and conditions.
4. The recognition of the playing out of co-dependent origination as the source of consciousness and the accompanying recognition of the nature of subject/object as a mental construct, a process that plays out over and over and over in rapid succession.
5. The recognition of emptiness as the underlying fabric of "things"
6. The recognition of a sense of "nothing to do, nowhere to go" There is only just this, right now.
7. The recognition that "everything is perfect just as it is" with nothing to add or to remove as everything were experience is innately whole and complete
I agree that may of these overlap but I think in so doing we make it more comprehensive and more relatable by more people and thus catch more of the common elements we hear others telling is about their experiences of "IT."
So, here's the revised list:
1. The ability to examine one's own "shit" objectively, to in essence be very self-aware of one's behavior, thoughts, emotions and actions and to do so generally with moment to moment, real time awareness.
2. The realization, whether momentary or permanent, of non-dual awareness. This is essentially the recognition of the weird either/or/both (relative/absolute) nature of experience as we perceive it accompanied the recognition that how we choose to perceive it is part of the equation.
3. The recognition of what humans usually perceive to be the permanent self as impermanent, non-continuous and "generated" moment by moment by causes and conditions.
4. The recognition of the playing out of co-dependent origination as the source of consciousness and the accompanying recognition of the nature of subject/object as a mental construct, a process that plays out over and over and over in rapid succession.
5. The recognition of emptiness as the underlying fabric of "things"
6. The recognition of a sense of "nothing to do, nowhere to go" There is only just this, right now.
7. The recognition that "everything is perfect just as it is" with nothing to add or to remove as everything were experience is innately whole and complete
I agree that may of these overlap but I think in so doing we make it more comprehensive and more relatable by more people and thus catch more of the common elements we hear others telling is about their experiences of "IT."