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- Why I don't "feel" enlightened from the vipassana "progress of insight" perspective even though I have "stream entry"
Why I don't "feel" enlightened from the vipassana "progress of insight" perspective even though I have "stream entry"
14 years 4 months ago #2549
by Shargrol
Interesting, I think I've been through that... maybe more extended and less intense. I do feel like I'm in a limbo where I can hangout forever or I can "decide" to keep going. Actually, what is being decided is not to keep going (in terms of more effort) but more about what my preference is: to keep existing in the world of thinking/planning or to recognize the reality of a more immediate now (and the contraction/pain and joy/wonder of it). Practice doesn't seem to have much traction these days, doesn't seem so mechanical. Time put in doesn't equal new territory experienced. Off the cushion, the witness stage is showing up much more frequently, becoming more and more normal.
Anyway, I only posted about my stuff because it seemed related to the idea of having stream entry but not feeling enlightened. Hope it helps.
Replied by Shargrol on topic Why I don't "feel" enlightened from the vipassana "progress of insight" perspective even though I have "stream entry"
Shargrol, yeah, there is a period (Jackson might also jump in and agree) in which one feels ill at ease, uncertain and.... just kind of lost. I recall this period very clearly but without fondness, to say the least. "What the hell am I doing?" was the general feeling. It was as if the path itself was testing my resolve. "Are you really going to do this?" it would ask. "You bet!" was my reply. So I just kept on keeping on. It passed eventually, thank goodness.
-cmarti
Interesting, I think I've been through that... maybe more extended and less intense. I do feel like I'm in a limbo where I can hangout forever or I can "decide" to keep going. Actually, what is being decided is not to keep going (in terms of more effort) but more about what my preference is: to keep existing in the world of thinking/planning or to recognize the reality of a more immediate now (and the contraction/pain and joy/wonder of it). Practice doesn't seem to have much traction these days, doesn't seem so mechanical. Time put in doesn't equal new territory experienced. Off the cushion, the witness stage is showing up much more frequently, becoming more and more normal.
Anyway, I only posted about my stuff because it seemed related to the idea of having stream entry but not feeling enlightened. Hope it helps.
14 years 4 months ago #2550
by Jackson
Yes, I agree. I'm always pleasantly surprise at how well you (Chris) can say something as important as this in so few words, without gunking it up with model-speek
Replied by Jackson on topic Why I don't "feel" enlightened from the vipassana "progress of insight" perspective even though I have "stream entry"
... there is a period (Jackson might also jump in and agree) in which one feels ill at ease, uncertain and.... just kind of lost.
-cmarti
Yes, I agree. I'm always pleasantly surprise at how well you (Chris) can say something as important as this in so few words, without gunking it up with model-speek

14 years 4 months ago #2551
by Tom Otvos
-- tomo
Replied by Tom Otvos on topic Why I don't "feel" enlightened from the vipassana "progress of insight" perspective even though I have "stream entry"
I totally get the "lost" feeling, and have no freaking idea where I am on any map. I suspect you do have stream entry, but my suspicions should be considered very "suspect". I can relate to some of your physical experiences (like your recent office one), but I really, truly, don't think I have SE.
IMO, we have been conditioned, recently, to swing too far into the "awakening for everyone" message promoted by DhO/KFD. While I still fully believe I can become awake, it *will* take dedicated practice and effort and, once awake, will continue to do so. If it were trivially easy, it would have become the default mode for being a long, long time ago. We are not smarter than our ancestors, we just have different tools.
It is so easy to fool oneself.
IMO, we have been conditioned, recently, to swing too far into the "awakening for everyone" message promoted by DhO/KFD. While I still fully believe I can become awake, it *will* take dedicated practice and effort and, once awake, will continue to do so. If it were trivially easy, it would have become the default mode for being a long, long time ago. We are not smarter than our ancestors, we just have different tools.
It is so easy to fool oneself.
-- tomo