took my wife to a zen service

This was interesting.
It was the weekly meeting of the Modesto sangha of the Grace Shireson SFZC-affiliated soto zen group.
It's two hours:
zazen
kinhin (walking meditation)
zazen
service (with bowing, chanting, incense offering, more bowing/chanting)
then a little lecture preceeded by and followed by more chanting.
There are matts and cushions and priests in robes and buddha statues and chimes and bells.
We sit facing the wall. We prostrate to the Buddha.
We chanted the Heart Sutra.
It's very zen and has a real religious feel.
The lecture was by the "shuso," who was the designated "head monk" of the sangha for this practice period. It was on his own practice history as well as the Heart Sutra.

Now, Bec had NEVER been exposed to anything like this. She went to a Baptist Church as a child and is now a sort of non church going Christian with a POWERFUL devotional connection to Jesus. She is happy and content with her spiritual life.

She didn't really like the service.

First, during the first zazen session she was taken out to another room by one of the priests (along with another first timer) for "zazen instruction" and I think she felf a bit patronized -- enough so that she came back in to join the man group feeling uncomfortable.

Then, like it is for a lot of people, all the bowing and chantng was just strange.

The lecture just annoyed her. The "shuso" talked a lot about people (Phillip Kapleau, Suzuki Roshi, etc.) and books and concepts without really giving any explanation, he just kind of assumed that we all knew the references. I knew what he was taking about but Bec was new to it all.

So, she felt patronized, she was put off by the ritual, and basically thought that the speaker was arrogant.

Her main reaction, which was the most interesting to me was "I don't get why these people need all that stuff to be spiritual." to her the posture, the robes, the chants, the bowing, etc. all just seemed extra.

Two reasons:
To see what it was all about.
And, because we are both on vacation and wanted to do things together.

It's nice to get the perspective of an "outsider", isn't it? I wonder what would happen if you were to share this information with the folks who run the place. If it was my Zen center, I would appreciate the feedback. Not everyone is open to suggestions, though.

I still haven't been to any real Buddhist services. Funny, huh?

Funny-- I was an overly-informed eclectic semi-outsider when I started hanging out with the local Rinzai group a few years back. People didn't seem arrogant, but the 'service' was churchier than I'd expected [chants instead of hymns; teisho instead of sermon; things that 'we' think and do and like, that 'they' don't]. My eventual conclusion is that I'm more a solitary hermit than a socially motivated practitioner. Too much wisdom coming at me tends to make me confused and dubious-- more than seems useful.

It's nice to get the perspective of an "outsider", isn't it? I wonder what would happen if you were to share this information with the folks who run the place. If it was my Zen center, I would appreciate the feedback. Not everyone is open to suggestions, though.
I still haven't been to any real Buddhist services. Funny, huh?

-awouldbehipster

Huh, I think the service is fine (I loved it), I just don't think it is suited for Bec. The weekly services aren't meant to be a complete intro to Zen each time. A new person who is interested needs to be patient, ask questions , learn slowly. Bec clearly just isn't interested or intrigued.

I think that the question 'why do they need all that stuff ?' is instructive and challenging. There is a fundamental mistake that can happen -- to mistake all the trappings for the real teachings.

That didn't come out right.
I think what Bec picked up on is that sort of insular "we are special because we do zen" vibe that can come off of certain people (the 'we vs. them' thing that Kate noticed). As a total outsider with no real interest in being a part of the thing, I think Bec is particularly sensitive to that.
I'm not sure about this, but I really do think that some serious zen practioners think that the "zen culture" of the robes and rituals and statues and chants and ranks and teachings and other insider elements is the end all and be all of zen practice -- that the objective is to be good at zen rather than to use zen practice to get awake to their true nature.

Also, I think there is a natural human impluse in many people to just naturally enjoy religion for it's own sake -- the belonging to a community, the sense of the sacred that can come from ritual, the way certain things always happen certain times of the day, the week, the month. It isn't necessarily good or bad, it's just what some people really like -- christians, muslums, hindus, buddhists, etc. Bec doesn't like it I don't think.