I've stopped caring about "enlightenment"

There it is, I've said it.

I haven't stopped caring about living a peaceful, moral life, and I'm still fascinated with how Buddhist dharma (and other various teachings out there) can help me to do that.

But, the whole idea of "getting enlightened" or making some kind of "progress" on "the path" just doesn't mean anything to me now.

Now a lot of this is due to a sort of mistake on my part, a mistake that a lot of people make and are making -- thinking that there is some promise in the dharma or other spiritual practices for some kind of ending, some kind of final moment of awakening/enlightenment in which one is now permenantly transformed into some kind of new being that will no longer be subject to normal pain and suffering and who will now forever be living in a state of perfect insight into one's true nature.

Now you might still believe this. I think a lot of professional-type dharma people still believe it and are still striving for that great prize. But I definitely don't believe it, and possibly my realization of what a useless fantasy enlightenment is is probably as "enlightened" as I'm ever going to get.

Now, if I had more time on my hands, I'd like to do a real careful study on my own of what "the Buddha" (I'm still not even convinced that there was one actual historical buddha) actually promised and taught. I imagine the noble eight-fold path is simply a pointing to how to be as peaceful as possible as much as possible, how to live in as much light as possible as often as possible -- but not a pointing to some final perfect state.

I mean, the facts (and I have very little doubt that they are FACTS) of the three characteristics themselves are mostly what brought me to this conclusion. The nature of being human on the earth is that there is no person to be enlightened anyway, that everything is changing all the time so a lasting state of whatever "enlightenment" might be is IMPOSSIBLE, and, of course, there is NO permanent, lasting satisfaction to be found, anywhere, anyway. So there.

Now, of course, this is a great relief to me. I get to stop chasing my tail. I get to stop comparing my own, base, human, disgusting behaviors (in other words -- sometimes being a complete asshole), to some ideal and can just accept and surrender to the fact that I'm doing the best I can and that I have NO control over the simple fact that I'm just another human on the earth separate from AND connected to all of you and everything else in the cosmos.

What do you think? Am I wrong? I could be.

It makes me happy to read this. I think it's because you're not just writing about ideas. This is a lived experience for you. It comes from your bones. (At least that's how it seems to me.)

There are some spiritual teachers out there who portray themselves as those who are enlightened to the point of being perpetually One with the Divine, without ever being bothered by worldly concerns or personal and collective sufferings. There are also teachers with decades of experience who say that such claims are bogus. Life continues to happen (i.e. "shit" happens), and we fall from grace again and again; and thus, return to the practice again and again to get un-stuck.

Of the individuals I've known who have experienced some form of awakening, not one of them has remained perpetually free from suffering. I know of those who say they are, but I don't have any real contact with those folks. I imagine their fallibility would become salient if I spent any significant amount of time with them.

I don’t know what happened to the Buddha when he woke up. I do know that Buddhist practice improves my life and helps me to better live according to my values. That's good enough for me.
And also, what's with the emphasis on getting it "done" - as though there should be a point in time when "it is finished!"?

"Of the individuals I've known who have experienced some form of
awakening, not one of them has remained perpetually free from
suffering. I know of those who say they are, but I don't have any real
contact with those folks. I imagine they're fallibility would become
salient if I spent any significant amount of time with them.

I don’t know what happened to the Buddha when he woke up. I do know that
Buddhist practice improves my life and helps me to better live
according to my values. That's good enough for me.

And also, what's with the emphasis on getting it "done" - as though there should be a point in time when "it is finished!"? "

I'm in total agreement, Jackson; I think any confusion is the result of folks quoting some of the more famous translations of 'what the Buddha said' from a distorted point of view, a lingering belief in a Christian materialist 'salvation'. As if difficult events, or less-than-omnipotent responses by 'the enlightened one' would be magicked away by awakening. Whereas the only thing that seems to make any sense in the light of my own experience so far, is that one ceases to be a puppet to those still-operative internal and external forces. One ceases to feel victimized by difficulty and just works with whatever presents itself-- to the best of one's ability at the time. Triumphalist declarations, or looking totally cool to oneself or others, are definitely not part of it!

Also agreed: what sense could it possibly make to want one's "wild and precious life" to be DONE? That will happen in every case soon enough!

Nice, Kate

"I think any confusion is the result of folks quoting some of the more famous translations of 'what the Buddha said' from a distorted point of view, a lingering belief in a Christian materialist 'salvation'."

I was thinking about this as well. The story that comes to mind is when Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist, where the Holy Spirit descends onto/into him. Then, he goes into the wilderness for 40 day and 40 nights to square off with the Devil, and comes back all triumphant and miraculous. This isn't that unlike the Buddha's long journey to awakening, at least at a surface level. You gotta love the power of myth.

The problem is that people in the West read the story of the Budda's awakening and (I think) attribute Christ-like attributes to him, as if he is the stainless Son of Man. I personally think that both the stories of Jesus and the Buddha have been grossly mythologized over the years, which does both of their respective messages a disservice. (Maybe I'll say more on that another time.)

"Whereas the only thing that seems to make any sense in the light of my own experience so far, is that one ceases to be a puppet to those still-operative internal and external forces. One ceases to feel victimized by difficulty and just works with whatever presents itself-- to the best of one's ability at the time. Triumphalist declarations, or looking totally cool to oneself or others, are definitely not part of it!"

Exactly! I see awakening as more of a way of being and interacting than a destination. Life, the Universe, and Everything continue to move shift and change and twist and turn. And the last time I checked, I'm a part of this crazy thing happening right now. Learning to engage the movement of (or relax into) reality in a way that best serves us is a worthwhile goal. There's nothing static about it.

So would some of you agree with my thought that maybe just the promise of some kind of perfect endng state or the belief in such a thing is just a simple mistake made by some of us humans sometimes?

Are you a betting man, Mike? What odds do you want to offer on 'unanimous agreement'?

"some kind of perfect endng state"

This is a fascinating phrase, though, Michael: what would that be, exactly? like walking around in a glazed-eyed ecstatic reverie 24/7? being so blissed out you don't care if you just sit on the couch staring into space until your flesh grows into the fabric? or just having that guru voice/face permanently come over you, so you kinda walk around all slow and mellow, with a benign smile, talking in a slow, comforting dharma-talk way?

i'm being a bit silly in my tone, but I bet (-->kate! I will bet!) everyone has or had a somewhat different idea of what a "perfect ending state" would be... and I'd love to know what they are/were.

"some kind of perfect endng state"
This is a fascinating phrase, though, Michael: what would that be, exactly? like walking around in a glazed-eyed ecstatic reverie 24/7? being so blissed out you don't care if you just sit on the couch staring into space until your flesh grows into the fabric? or just having that guru voice/face permanently come over you, so you kinda walk around all slow and mellow, with a benign smile, talking in a slow, comforting dharma-talk way?
i'm being a bit silly in my tone, but I bet (-->kate! I will bet!) everyone has or had a somewhat different idea of what a "perfect ending state" would be... and I'd love to know what they are/were.
[/quote

Ona, I think the idea I always had was never too outrageous. Sort of a constant living in a "unitive" non-dual awareness in which the total creation of the universe instant by instant is always experienced and seen while being able to live in the relative world completely friction free -- having pain and suffering but with such perfect perspective never being bothered by it.

Okay -- maybe it was a little outrageous.

I messed up the post above. Everything up to "[/quote" is Ona, and after that is my reply.

Anyway, still, are there some truths we can discuss regarding "developmental insight" -- is that the phrase?

Can practice cause one to "get" the three characteristics in such a way that the brain that gets them is fundamentally different somehow from then on? (even though this entity will still suffer)

And, is the above process the same as one's first "fruition" or are they unrelated?

I now know that I got the three characteristics through practice before I'd ever really heard of them. And, I was the same miserable bastard afterwards. However, it is very possible if I'd had less basic dysfunction in my background (and foreground) and some good guidance the potential may have been there at that point for me to have some real spiritual (peaceful) development. But I'm not sure about that.

Tomo -- nice, beautiful.

More from Monson. I will admit, however, that last July when I had what I guess was a pretty significant frution/cessation moment or whatever (that I now realize wasn't my first) I had several days of a significant good mood. The best mood,ever, really.

Then for about six or seven weeks my moment to moment experience was significantly friction free. I remember feeling like I was really "there" for each object of my experience (that's impossible I know but that is how it felt) and that I met each one with a cool equanimity. Now, by this time I'd stopped my typical constant drug and alcohol abuse for I think about nine months. Then, I think it's safe to say that once I picked the drugs and drink back up in late August the good moods and cool E slowly faded and then pretty much stopped (with occassional exceptions).

Now, I wonder how much of that initial spike in great mood followed by the cool E was because of the almost totally physical practice of twice a day seated vipassana in equanimity/fruition along with concerted effort of be mindful with equanimity throughout the day? Know what I mean?. Were my brain and my body doing something, that, if cultivated, just naturally results in a more peaceful, cool state most of the time? And, is that something like what the buddha was getting at? I think regular zen practice would produce the same kind of results.

Right. None of this stuff needs to have any relation to mystical or magical dogma, concepts, philosophy or religion.



The question I think I didn't really ask but meant to is this -- is it possible that beyond the basic benefits of meditation/mindfullness is there a further, special benefit to getting the three C's and/or experiencing "frutions" from mastering equanimity to the right extent? Or, is all that just more religious/mystical BS? Is there a physical/mental manifestation to high E, fruition, cessation, etc that is worth all the fuss?

My opinion is that there is more to meditation, spiritual development, and awakening than simple mindfulness. Mindfulness is of the utmost importance, though. None of this stuff is possible without mindfulness.

However, there's something about the way that insight leads to shifts in experience. By "shifts" I mean the way that insight loosens and eventually untangles - if only momentarily - one's identification as being in any way separate from the greater field of being. These shifts take many forms, and I think that "cessation" as described and experienced by some Theravadin traditions is one such form of a shift out of the illusion of duality.

It doesn't have to be cessation, though. There are shifts that are like a gradual dissolving. There are shifts that are like a trap door swinging open beneath your feet. There are shifts into compassionate presence. These shifts are the effects of practice, but not necessarily their purpose. The purpose is to cultivate attention, which is - again - where mindfulness comes in.

It would seem that all paths do lead to the same destination, which is no destination. Round and round we go. I think for the first time I might have an ever so slight understanding of what "mandalic reasoning" might be like. In truth, I don't know. And I'm not just being all Zenny and cute. I really don't know.

Now, I wonder how much of that initial spike in great mood followed by the cool E was because of the almost totally physical practice of twice a day seated vipassana in equanimity/fruition along with concerted effort of be mindful with equanimity throughout the day? Know what I mean?. Were my brain and my body doing something, that, if cultivated, just naturally results in a more peaceful, cool state most of the time? And, is that something like what the buddha was getting at? I think regular zen practice would produce the same kind of results.


-michaelmonson

I agree with hipster's response... since I'm better at examples than anything else:

Just as an example, there were times when I noticed so and so was getting on my nerves, and the habitual anxiety I felt when talking to them was arising, and I was mindful of that, but it was still arising. And then there was a phone call one day with said person where I hung up and suddenly realized I'd just had a full hour fun, chit-chat conversation with them. No anxiety, no bursts of anger. It just didn't happen. It wasn't because I was making a zenny effort during the phone call. It just didn't happen all by itself.

Similarly (both of these were during the week after a shift (I like that term, I think!), when everything was flowy and equanimous to the nth degree) I recall being in the last hour of a nine hour road trip, on a densely trafficked urban highway, and a guy cut me off really badly. I had to slam on the brakes, and normally would have been enraged and sworn like a pirate. Honest to god I said "oopsie! be careful there!" as I slammed on the brakes, and continued merrily on my way without another thought.

Those extremes didn't always stick around in such an extreme way, though I certainly felt an increase in patience and kindness and so forth even just a few months into meditating - enough to get me through some really bad times with less panic than I would have had.

I'm sure I've heard this elsewhere, not my idea, but I think I like the metaphor of cultivating seeds - you have to prep the soil, water them, tend to them, but at some point they sprout (or sometimes they don't) and they grow (or sometimes they don't, or they might grow big or small, for their own reasons) and that's just what they do by themselves, not because you "make them". But if you don't put some effort in to create the right environment, they certainly won't sprout at all.

And one other thought which rings true to me (and again I heard this somewhere, though i don't recall where) - any person, awakened or not, will feel pain if you drop a hammer on their toe - it's the body's way of alerting you that tissue is being damaged so you can protect and heal it. Suffering is when you then go into a funk, how stupid of me to drop the hammer, now I can't go hiking this weekend, I'm such a clumsy loser, look how awful my toe looks, recalling how dad would belt you for being an idiot when you were a kid, flashbacks down bad memory lane, fear, guilt, anger, anxiety layered on a simple bodily response.... thoughts on that?

I was mulling over how my interest in the subject of 'what effects does a meditation practice produce? what is happening when I meditate?' has meandered from the subjective/psychosocial to the objective/physiological-- perhaps because for the last couple of years I have been poking around the vast subject of Asian medicine.

As a person brought up in the Christian Science worldview-- 'material reality does not exist: it is a mistake of thought' was what it seemed was being taught-- I am uniquely poised in ignorance to really appreciate the differences between Asian and Western medical models. Both systems are equally alien to my earliest education. Similarly, I can ask really dumb questions about what happens when I meditate; and it is the dumb questions, often, that produce the most surprising answers.

The overview, so far, is that practice can produce a highly unusual order of physiological functioning-- one that mostly gets expressed by the Asian religions in ways that sound preposterous, mythological, or poetically symbolic to the Western scientific materialist. As a consequence, what is interesting is not 'enlightenment', but enlightened-- that is, optimal-- functioning. I feel that I'm just gawping on the threshhold at what is possible, just in terms of what the human organism has within its native capacity.

I've become much less dismissive of what I read of the more 'miraculous' accounts of high yogis. 'Rainbow body', intentional reincarnation, living on impossibly small amounts of food-- I am no longer sure these things are not possible; I am more interested in what purpose they might serve, if convincing evidence demonstrates their actuality.

Right. None of this stuff needs to have any relation to mystical or magical dogma, concepts, philosophy or religion.

The question I think I didn't really ask but meant to is this -- is it possible that beyond the basic benefits of meditation/mindfullness is there a further, special benefit to getting the three C's and/or experiencing "frutions" from mastering equanimity to the right extent? Or, is all that just more religious/mystical BS? Is there a physical/mental manifestation to high E, fruition, cessation, etc that is worth all the fuss?

-michaelmonson

No thoughts on this?

THANKS

is it possible that beyond the basic benefits of meditation/mindfullness
is there a further, special benefit to getting the three C's and/or
experiencing "frutions" from mastering equanimity to the right extent?
Or, is all that just more religious/mystical BS? Is there a
physical/mental manifestation to high E, fruition, cessation, etc that
is worth all the fuss?


-michaelmonson

Like what? Do you mean is there a basic benefit to basic meditation and an even more excellent benefit to "really good/advanced" meditation? Are you really asking "I've been meditating for so long, why don't I feel good more often?"

I mean, in my own experience at least the deeper meditation went it got ugly too, not just "better and better." The longer I meditated the deeper things went, and deeper's not always pretty at all. Often enough it was pure hell, pain, grief, frustration and so on. Sometimes to a point I didn't think I could survive it. It wasn't like meditating for 3 months created a 30% bliss level, and meditating for 18 months knocked the level right up to 120% bliss or something. Though overall my general levels of patience, lack of anxiety, ability to laugh at things, compassion etc tended to increase, but not in a mathematical way. There's a technical aspect to it, sure, but (sorry to say) there's a whole realm at which it's not about technicalities, but about all that mystical crap, at least for me.

Someone else once said, quite wisely I think, there's no good meditation and bad meditation. The whole point is to just be with whatever's going on**. You don't get a special gold star if you have a blissy, peaceful sit, and you don't get a whack on the hand from an angry nun for having a tumultuous, confused, angry sit.

I may be missing your point completely though, in which case ignore what I just said and hopefully someone else has a better idea!


**that is perhaps part of what is worth all the fuss, when that becomes natural. Besides, you've done this much, why stop now?

By "all the fuss" -- I meant all the fuss about stream/entry fruition in the theravad/vipassana four path model. Not all the fuss about meditation in general.

There are a LOT of vipassana meditators out there for whom stream entry is a very big deal.

Since I was once one of those and am kind of re-examining all the "fuss" of the entire four-path model in light of my own experience, I'm just wondering if there is validity to the idea that "getting" the three characteristics at a non-conceptual insight level and/or having those moments of fruition/cessation actually change one's brain in some meaningful way. Or not.

My theory right now is that gettng the three C's and the ability to move out from equanimity and into fruition ARE one in the same. One can't do the second without the first. And, that yes, while this doesn't guarantee any kind of certain quality of experience, it does fundamentally change one's appreciation of their actual true nature. (though continued practice and a focus on "integration" is necessary to make this change make one more peaceful and/or happy in any meaningful way).
Thoughts on this?

Also, to be clear about my meditation intentions: while I certainly would like to be as peaceful, happy and joyous as much as possible as often as possible -- for me the most important purpose for meditation and moment to moment mindfullness is intimacy. I've always seen it as a way to really live in reality right now no matter what that is (from highs to lows to pleasure and pain just the truth of the moment). I am convinced that that is the best way to be a spouse, a parent, a son/daugther, a sibling, a worker, a citizen, a friend. It's the best way (for me) to be born, to live, and to die. And, from that I think, happiness will take care of itself without me having to do anything particularly special

Mindfulness/insight/meditation/intimacy causes us all to share the wonderful wisdom that is inherent everywhere -- that to surrender, to pay attention, and to do the right thing(s) are the only ways to real peace of mind and real fulfillment in this strange, awful and freaking beautiful existence.

"Thoughts on this?"

Not so many! Only that it seems the Vipassana/Theravada folks I am aware of are particularly fascinated by maps and models and they talk about vibrations in a way that makes it seem they were all in bands at some time (I have no idea what a Hertz is, except the rental car agency). I found it initially inspiring (look, a map! a recipe!!) but later not really so relevant. It seems to be a really good fit with some folks. I'd say sure meditation and associated shifts in perception and various experiences change your brain in some fundamental way (rewire it somehow), eventually permanently. But one need not fuss about it. I like "just sit and watch what happens." <shrug>

Yeah, the maps kind of lose their appeal, I noticed that, too.

Why the focus on "brain changes", though? Why not look for changes in the digestive system while we're at it? Hair growth? All of this keeps changing, including the brain - neurons die, neurons connect, brain chemistry changes depending on diet - what exactly would we be looking for here? (i.e. I don't think highly of the trend to reduce the mode of experience to neuronal configuration).

To me, what changed were certain aspects of my mode of experience, that sense of less filtering, less useless harmful fooling myself. I haven't had my brain examined before and after, so knowledge of any brain changes there might have been don't figure in my mode of experience. I don't think that's a loss, though.

I also think it's nice to look at how the 3Cs fit in with experience as a whole, i.e. how suffering is the perfect fit for compassion, impermanence for cessation, and not-self for safety.

Cheers,
Florian

After a substantial period of time of practicing vipassana (noting or noticing sensations in the body) various vibrations become detectable. This first happened to me in November of 2009 and it has just gotten stronger. In fact, all I need is to be sitting still and I'll notice them all over both weak and strong both fast and slow -- mostly in my feet, hands, arms, face, skull. When I am doing seated medication and noting the rising and falling of my abdomen I'll percieve them there as well, or inside my nostrils when I focus on the breath going in and out in that spot.

Frution/cessation (I still can't figure out which is which) occur when attention is placed on present experience with just the right amount of continuity and momentum for just the right length of time.

This can happen with any object -- all that matters is the quality of the attention. For example, my first fruitions (in the early 1980s) happened when the main objects of my close attention were a combination of rapidly changing thoughts/mental images and the changing degree of tensions in my best/forehead/abdomen. But, body vibrations, I think, seem to be particularly effective objects with which to achieve this degree of attention. I'm not sure why.

However, for me, noting/noticing (I prefer noticing) these vibrations as they come and go and appear and dissapear all over in varying speeds and strengh, taking care to clearly notice each one as it starts and as it stops and then the next on and the .... NEXT -- just really works to make the quality of attention (in bold above) necessary for fruition. I think this is why vipassana practitioners seem to be so interested in vibrations.

I think that what happens with this special quality of attention I keep talking about is this -- the only way to acheive it is to 1) see each object with complete objectivity and to thus 2) disembed from those objects and then, somewhere in this activity of attention 3) finally see through the illusion of a solid self, experience the now irrefutible truth that change is infinite and constant, and the impossibility of any kind of satisfaction anywhere from any objects for any other objects.

Now, it is my belief that I keep repeating over and over on various forums (with so far no agreement or really any comments) that zazen and, especially formal zen training in long term seshins will produce this effect with the right persons at the right time -- just look at a sesshin schedule and then imagine sitting completely still with just the right posture from 5 a.m. to 10 p.m. along with kinhin, orioki eating, etc for three, five, seven or ten days in a row and tell me it wouldn't produce the kind of continuity of momentum and attention I'm talking about. (as long as the practitioner is sincerely praticing)

This is sitting and watching what happens.

Now, what can be wonderful (I'm just reporting MY experience) is to be walking along all caught up in some crisis, or worry/anxiety, or fearful projections (regarding anything -- jobs, relationships, kids, some critical degree of self incrimination, whatever) and to be practicing surrendered, objective attention on this process .... in just the right way -- and then BOOM -- just see right through all the BS that is just a fiction of the fictional self and have it all just disappear and melt away as if it never really happened. There can be peace here, there can be a moment in which life seems brighter, crisper, more illuminated, and there can be a sense of joy as well -- and, unfortunately an instant new set of projections and cravings requiring more attention in order to again get relief.