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Spiritual ambition, or caring too much, or caring not enough?

  • Dharma Comarade
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14 years 8 months ago #1182 by Dharma Comarade
Nowadays when I read accounts of paths and stages and posts on forums from people debating the fine lines of spiritual development and what is possible and what isn't (can we eliminate the self? can we eliminate anger?) I'm struck by my complete lack of interest in such things.

Why is this? Is it because -

1. I'm so far advanced and at such perfect peace with myself and others? (no)

2. It just all seems like too much trouble for something that will just change and end anyway? (maybe)

3. I've just lost interest for now and it may return later and in the meantime I'm just in a different place at least temporarily? (possible)

All I really want to do right now practice-wise is to continue to develop my skill at being present and surrender and attentive moment to moment. I want to keep getting good at being open and ready and able to allow anything to happen inside and out. This is something I do all the time, on the cushion or not (mostly not). I really see this as a mostly non-verbal, non-intellectual activity. My gut right now says that by doing this whatever good or bad that is supposed to happen spiritually will or will not happen -- that there is no need to figure out the future. I prefer it to be a surprise.

As I think I've said several times now, what i'm interested in discussing and hearing about from other practicioners is what their real lives are like (inside and out, alone and with people and things), how things are working or not working because of their practice. I want to hear about love and hate and healing and anger and lust and addiction and drunkeness and children and parents and bosses and coworkers and things getting fixed and things breaking and things ending and things just dying. You know, what is actually happening to all of us, for real.

And, again, at the core of this really is a sense that .... openess, attention, surrender is really the only effective option in the face of reality, that looking at a map might just get one lost. And, if you think you are lost, really the only logical thing to do is to stop moving and take a very careful look around.

Is there really a map to here/now? I don't think so.

My gut really talks to me in a way and lately it is saying that there is no place to go, no lasting solution to any of our problems, nothing that can be "attained" that won't eventually disapoint so it's best to just be ready for anything. And when one is ready for anything, things can be sublime and things can just completely suck -- for all of us.
  • Dharma Comarade
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14 years 8 months ago #1183 by Dharma Comarade
Of course, though, I'm participating in forums where people DO like to talk about such things and I think I could become a drag if all I do is talk about how I'm not interested in what everyone else wants to talk about.

I may start some kind of blog that at the center is me sharing real intimate stuff about life and practice while inviting others to do the same.
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14 years 8 months ago #1184 by Chris Marti
Or... you could do that here ;-)
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14 years 8 months ago #1185 by Kate Gowen
I think you're onto something BIG here, Mike: and your thread title suggested to me that 'spiritual ambition' is a profoundly oxymoronic notion. [ Yeah, I've finally made it: got the corner office on the 7th floor here at [url=http://Sprituality.com]Sprituality.com[/url], Inc. When the Big Guy moves on, I've got a shot at CEO! ]

Maybe generalizations and abstractions-- which is what maps and descriptions of progress are-- are pretty boring; what is interesting is the texture of experience. When someone can evoke THAT, in words, it instigates an experience in us, as well. That experience will be our own, it will imply something slightly different to different people. More useful and enjoyable than having people 'proving' stuff to you all the time.

If I try to imagine what, of interest to anyone else, is happening in my own life-- unfortunately-- I'd have to say, not much! At least lately; I'm probably as much a hermit as an employed person with grown children on their own, can be. In the past, there have been some minor sources of dramatic tension at my workplace; but I seem to have become too lazy to keep them going.

My major source of entertainment is getting as clear an understanding as I can, in as many aspects as I can examine-- how I actually 'work.' A subset of that is the question of meditation-- something that I enjoyed, did a lot, and seems to have set changes in motion, for a good long while. Then, recently, I felt I needed to find a different approach. What I had been doing came to seem like rote repetition. So I've thrown the whole issue open to question for myself-- do it, don't, why, how...
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14 years 8 months ago #1186 by Chris Marti
Mike, like you, I'm really focused on the here and now these days, and seeing the striving and desire to change things that arises all the time. Accepting, easing up, surrendering, those things are where it's at!
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14 years 8 months ago #1187 by Jackson
"Accepting, easing up, surrendering, those things are where it's at!" -Chris

I'm SO with you guys on this.
  • Dharma Comarade
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14 years 8 months ago #1188 by Dharma Comarade
Got up at four a.m. yesterday -- innocent, raw, ready.

The plan was simple: get to the Modesto airport by five for six am flight to SFO. Connect to a flight to Washington/Dulles. Then, connect to a flight to Raleigh/Durham, NC. Was supposed to get there at 6:30 p.m. EST, in time, hopefully, for dinner, drnks at the bar, bed. There was going to be a hotel shuttle at the airport to bring me in.

Okay. Arrived at Modesto airport just as they were opening. Told, with no sign of apology or regret that, our plane was NOT there and would NOT be there due to the fact that it was too foggy the night before. Now what? Bec was just dropping me off and was looking forward to getting back to her warm bed. The airport staff was no help, except to advise me to drive to SFO in order to catch my flight to Dulles.

We tried that, but by the time we got gas, went to the restoom, purchased coffee and got on the freeway, we only had two hours until my flight was going to be boarding. And, traffic was bad. Poor bec didn't have her purse, driver's license, etc. So, we kept driving through the fog and the traffic. Once it was for sure that I would miss my flight. I called the United reservations number. On hold for 25 minutes. After getting through finally, I was told that ALL my flights had been cancelled due to the weather. The operator got me on different flights, this time on US Air. I was told to go to US Air, and they would have me all booked for a flight leaving at 11:15 a.m. Sounded good.

Bec dropped me off. US Air had no record of my reservation. In fact, they showed me as checked in for my original Dulles flight, which was just about to leave. I had to walk with my bags down to the United terminal. After about an hour of waiting, going from one agent to another, I was put on two Continental flights -- one to Houston, the second to Durham. I had three hours to wait, and I wouldn't arrive until 10:30 p.m. I called the hotel to give them my new flight info for the shuttle.

Those flights did happen while in the meantime many many little annoyances occured. The entire world seemed to be incompetent and NOT out to give me good customer service. On the flight to Houston I was in the middle seat and could NEVER get comfortable. By the time we landed my entire body ached.

Then, my Durham flight was actually early. I got off, went down and got my bag, and then went outside to "ground transportation" and off to the area marked "hotel shuttles." Nothing. I waited ten minutes. Nothing. I called the hotel and begin a bizarre series of about eight calls in which I was hung up on, put on hold, never apologized to, and, ultimately, told that there would be no shuttle for me. I was on my own.

I did finally get there, just as the bar was closing. Luckily the bartender was cool and served me a cold beer. Nice.

So? How does practice relate to all of this? Or the other way around? Not sure. I was present the entire day for everything. I felt a LOT of anger. I was annoyed, I was indignant. I was pissed. I let people know I was pissed. I held my ground at times, and gave way at times. I was honest enough to realize that I was holding back from time to time, in that I wasn't quite "open" and "ready for anything" the entire day. Sometimes I was, sometimes I wasn't.

There was a thread of self criticism running through me all day, a bit of self judgement that I was getting so pissed off. I wasn't being a very good Christian, or a very good Buddhist or whatever. Aren't I "spiritual?" Arent' I a 'dedicated dharma student/practioner?" Shouldn't I just be cool with everything and just roll along with things like Caine from the Kung Fu tv show of my youth? (though I guess Caine always lost it near the end of the show and punched and kicked the stupid bad guys). Stuff like that.

At the same, time, another thread is reacting to the judgment -- "screw that, I'm alive, I'm human, I'm going to feel what I'm going to feel." Being "spiritual" can often just seem passive or submissive and even, life or spirit killing in way.

Really, what is more spiritual? What is better "practice?" Submission or assertion? Turning the other check or expecting to be treated well and with respect and making sure people who don't are aware of their transgressions?

I don't know. I feel fine today, kind of great, actually. I feel free of myself from yesterday. I think the key to answering the question above is in being honest about when I was or am actually open and ready and in a beginners mind state and when I was just indulging in my anger and other emotions and not wiling to be attentive and look for fear of losing the satisfactions of expressing myself. Make sense? In the face of my real dedication to making my life a practice of constant intimacy, I can see that self rightgeous often jerk-like behavior is often a compulsion -- and I can't behave compulsively unless I put my practice on hold for the duration of that behavior.

I actually don't think I want to be what myself or others think of as steriotypicaly "spritual." Like Caine or the Dali Lama or Jesus. I doubt that is my nature. I don't want to live a life in which I'm always judging myself or comparing myself to an ideal. But, I don't want to be a complete asshole either.

I really do prefer an empty state. A state full of energy and lacking in basic friction. At the moment it seems like that state can happen even in the midst of outer and inner turmoil if one is willing to take the leap into it. If one loses that willingness for a while, a price will be paid. But, I really think there is NO need to self criticize or judge or punnish oneself for what is seen as bad behaviour. As soon I was realize I'm not being attentive, it's time to start being attentive again. Or not. I'll see what happens.
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14 years 8 months ago #1189 by Chris Marti
Mike, air travel is a uniquely challenging experience. I do it all the time and the best path I have found when things even start to go wrong is to surrender to the experience. If you're making connections, like you were, any one little problem can ruin the whole causal chain - the dependently arising chain of airline flights, I suppose.

A similar kind of thing happened to me last week and I was only flying from Chicago to St. Louis. My original flight was supposed to leave at 4 PM. I was meeting someone in St. Louis for dinner. They were coming from SFO. All the flights but mine showed "Cancelled" on the UAL departure boards. When that happens I've learned to just let go and wait. As with most other aspects of our lives, there is no influencing the outcome with the airlines. You can get angry, you can yell, you can beg, you can barter, you can just go back home and quit, but you cannot change the process or the result. So, IMHO, air travel is great practice, especially in the winter.
I walked into my St. Louis hotel room at 1:30 AM

"I really think there is NO need to self criticize or judge or punnish oneself for what is seen as bad behaviour. As soon I was realize I'm not being attentive, it's time to start being attentive again. Or not. I'll see what happens. "

Yeah, agreed. We get a "do over" every second!
  • Dharma Comarade
  • Topic Author
14 years 8 months ago #1190 by Dharma Comarade
There was a time when I traveled by air a lot more regularly and had a lot of unpleasant experiences and sort of got used to things going wrong. I'd forgotten about all that.



I don't think I've mentioned my brother Chris very much here. He is eight years older and we spent many years being very close but our relationship has been strained for years now. When I saw him last month in Orange County I was shocked at his appearance (he looked 82 rather than 62 and had lost a LOT of weight). When I got back home I sent him a lot of emails asking direct questions about his health and his healthcare situation which he didn't answer. I got him on the phone finally and we had a fight. He told me to "back off" and so I said "okay" and hung up.



I found out late yesterday afternoon that he'd had a seizure in his apartment and fell and hit his head. He wasn't found for days and no one in our family even knew he was in the hospital for a couple of days after that. According to my sister, who went to the hospital last night, he is in a coma, his condition is classified as "grave" and they don't think he will make it for more than a couple of days, if that. My sister signed a DNR order.



After I found all this out, I was scheduled to go to a party from 7 to 11 here at the hotel with the other conferees. I went, torn between wanting to sit and cry and wanting to drink and party to try and blot out all my thoughts and feelings about Chris and my distant family for a while. I ended up doing a little of both.
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14 years 8 months ago #1191 by Jake St. Onge
ugh. sorry to hear about your brother, mike! :-(
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14 years 8 months ago #1192 by Chris Marti
Wow, Mike. I'm sorry to hear that, too.
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14 years 8 months ago #1193 by Kate Gowen
Curveballs, hard and fast, incoming; and you're still standing, still coherent-- you're doing GREAT, Mike.I hope your schedule can give you time to just sit. My sympathies are very much with you.
  • Dharma Comarade
  • Topic Author
14 years 8 months ago #1194 by Dharma Comarade
Thanks everyone. (curveballs? man, I haven't even shared most of what's gone on in the past six months or so, I'm not sure if you'd believe me )

Anyway, I just talked to my brother's daytime nurse. She was way more blunt and informative than the nighttime guy. Chris, according to her, is basically gone already. His brain is so damaged from laying for hours or days all alone on his floor after falling and hiting his head that the "person " who he was will never come back.

He is on a breathing machine. If his heart stops they will not try to restart it. When my dad arrives sometime today they will propose that Chris be taken off of all the machines, put on "comfort care" and be allowed to die. I imagine that my Dad will agree to this.

So, in a way he is already dead I guess. Still, I'm not really able to believe it and won't, I don't think, until he is actually declared dead.

Still a body in a bed, but no longer a person.
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14 years 8 months ago #1195 by Chris Marti
Peace to you and your family, Mike.
  • Dharma Comarade
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14 years 8 months ago #1196 by Dharma Comarade
He's dead.

How strange and how inevitable. I love him.
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14 years 8 months ago #1197 by Kate Gowen
In death-- whatever that may be, and I certainly don't know-- as in life, there is only the one thing we can do for one another. As you say, to love one another; to hold one another in our hearts for awhile. Just to remember that simplest thing.
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14 years 8 months ago #1198 by Chris Marti
I'm truly sorry to hear about your brother, Mike.
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