Practice "pattern" I'm noticing:

1. Surrender, letting go, equanimity. Things have gotten to the point where surrender, openness is the only solution. Whatever comes and goes is okay. This 'don't know' mind, 'beginners' mind.' This is a great place to be. Life is frictionless for the most part; unitive experiences are possible; unbidden insights abound. This leads to:

2. A fascination with the fruits of surrender, with the nice states and feelings. Slowly, surrending is forgotten and one begins chasing after all the good stuff. Reflection and analysis and pontification starts to creep in and then become dominant. This leads to:

3. Suffering, striving, dissapointment, humiliation. One gets more and more frustrated and lost. This, eventually leads to:

4. Surrender. And it starts again.

Welcome to your life, Dude

-cmarti

I mostly find myself to be a complete pain in the ass.

I mostly find myself to be a complete pain in the ass.


-michaelmonson

-- would this be in the time-honored tradition of THE Dude?

-- would this be in the time-honored tradition of THE Dude?

-kategowen

No, just the normal pain in the ass stuff

Another thing I getting into:

Knowing the three characteristics actually does nothing to change or eliminate the feeling and experience of being the person that you are right now, the person that you've been in the past, and the person(s) you will be in the future. An important part of the integration process is learning to surrender to, and freaking enjoy, the experience of being a human being on this planet doing all the various things human beings do. There is no need - because one is now "awakened" or has some kind of insights -- to be bashful about just being yourself and declaring all your needs and desires and mistakes and emotions and compulsions and compassions. If it wasn't for the fact that we are persons, there wouldn't even be pratice or awakening.

The new map from KFD:

1) A&P
2) 1st Path by the technical model
3) 2nd Path by the TM
4) 3rd Path by the TM
5) 4th Path by the TM
6) Emotional transformation
7) End of self-contraction

I'm not posting this as any kind of criticism, just thought it was interesting.

Your thoughts? How do you relate to this model experientially? intellectually? Just curious--- since you're kind of begging the question

I'll start. I have always operated, dharmically, upon the basis that it is entirely possible to exist without the "self-contraction", and thus without the subset of disturbing emotions which it entails, and thus the sorts of behaviors I engage in which those particular emotions entail. I've never found this controversial, and not because of adopting any traditional mythic beliefs, but simply because it is a perfectly reasonable hypotheses given my experience, which has included moments of insight free of that whole complex of solid-separate self-sense, disturbing self-centered emotions, socially harmful behaviors.

What do you think, Mike? And how do you see this fitting in to your practice pattern-- one which I happen to share, and I appreciate your articulation of it. This seems to be a fairly common pattern I think

Jake, to tell you the truth, I've come to a point where I don't really understand or necessarily believe in the various maps. I kind of believe in stream entry, I guess. But I don't really get how one can really be sure it has happend and I especially have no clue about what constitutes:

2) 1st Path by the technical model
3) 2nd Path by the TM
4) 3rd Path by the TM
5) 4th Path by the TM
6) Emotional transformation
7) End of self-contraction

You know? And this is not because I necessarily think these ideas are wrong or that anyone is lying, but because I really need to be very sceptial and very honest about these things and admit that at this point at least none of it makes sense to me. I used want it to make sense, I wanted to be like all the other yogis I know online who seem so sure that they are at 1st path or 2nd path or NS or the pure abodes and all that. But I'm just not. And I wouldn't be following the mythic or historical buddha if I pretended otherwise. We all have to find out what is true FOR US. Right? (Seriously, I don't know if the emperor is clothed or not)

I think I am however far enough along on some kind of map to find obsession with maps to seem kind of silly. I really think we can practice using our gut rather than our brains to figure out how to be awake and peaceful more often than not. The tools are all out there to pick and choose from.
And, by "silly" I mean the map compulsion just seems like a self centered ego driven activity that can just be sidestepped by just letting go, you know? Does it seem strange to ask that if one was really practicing in surrendered emptiness moment to moment they'd really stop to care about the attainment of some place on some map they'd read about on the internet? That just doesn't sound like freedom to me. Krishnamurti always said that if one really knew how to look one would always know what to do and all actions from that place would come out of love -- I understand this because I've actually seen it in my own life time and again, and I could be wrong but to me that is "practice" and I don't really see where caring about attainments really fits into that kind of living.

I exist each moment as a gathering of stuff to make a thing called Mike Monson. This stuff changes continuously: things rise and they pass; it's always very very different and surprisingly often quite the same in appearance and patterns of behavior. It will all completely fall about at some point and never gather together again to make anything that resembles a Mike Monson. Someday soon there will be no Mike Monson or Jake or any memory of a Mike Monson or a Jake. Eventually our entire culture and our planet will die completey and there will be no trace of us or Buddha or Jesus or Buddhism or Christianity or any trace of any culture from here. To me there is incredible beauty in these facts; incredible beauty, incredible freedom, and, of course, at times, a deep dark gut wrenching fear.

edit: and, it could just be that that is how my practice is right now or from now on. maybe for some yogis all these maps are just incredibly helpful and make it easier for THEM to get the peace and freedom that I am talking about. Just because to me they seem almost like torture doesn't mean that that is how they related to by others.

Jake, to answer your question about 'self contraction." Again I don't really understand what the KFD folks mean by it for sure. but --- I agree that it is entirely possibly to practice moment to moment in a way where there is "flow," where there is a lack of friction, where there is a kind of empty beginners mind that is at the same time really sensitive, really intelligent and really free. Practice can bring this, no doubt. Nowadays I really don't see any other reason to practice than to slip into this state. This is maybe a lack of self-contraction.

However, (I work in a law office so I have to slip in 'however' as often as possible ) the "end" of self contraction? That is bizarre to me. It is just so so tempting to self contract, because, the truth is, we are persons, right? It's what we do. Why would we stop completely. It's like UG Krishnamurti's fake saint. Is there a person who is completely free of self-centered desires? to never contract and want stuff just for oneself based upon years and years of conditioning in the mind? NO no no. I just don't think so. And who whould even want that? A person, right?

Sure, we can have great moments, maybe for most of our life, of freedom from that self contraction thing, but forever? Always? what if we were in a horrible accident? what if there was an awful terriorist attack? what if your family was all killed? Any kind of horrible trauma? what if you got senile? demented? alzheimers?

Any moment or moments of freedom and emptiness are great and are to be cultivated and cherished. but, to think there is an end to the other side of the coin? I don't get it.

Who knows maybe someday I'll read this post again and understand and wonder why I protested so much.

Damn, I'm gonna have to start asking more questions! Good stuff. I am officially adopting a question-asking policy Thanks

I feel you on the momentary nature of practice, and I have the sense that personhood is just fine, a natural facet of our being. It certainly seems-- to me, with my temperament and style and so on-- that the closer I am to my natural state, the more relaxed into that natural empty presence, the more absurd the notion of map, territory and all that's implied with that becomes (to me). I've never been hard-core into the mapping, and my conclusion from my limited experience with nana's, jhannas, cessation and other basic facets of vipassana is that these experiences have a lot to do with a certain aaplication of that technique. Different technique, different experiences. But that natural state- beginners mind-- just isn't like that; not a state that is the result of a technique. The whole heroic approach to practice appeals to a subpersonality of mine, for sure; there's some sort of "achiever yogi" in here somewhere, but that facet of my personality has never been the basis for my sense of practice. I think all the technical mapping, and the ability to enter all the experiences that the map offers, involves a certain motivation that I don't think I have. The "seeker" in me just isn't the basis of my practice; I really don't find like there's something I'm missing and need to find. It seems a lot easier to just acknowledge the depth of this moment, what is really happening right now, and the fact that there is freedom right here, right now, which is already fully present and requires no heroic measures on "my" part to "achieve", least of all the heroic measure of eliminating "me" as the freedom and the clear seeing that are always already present just aren't bothered by "me", this personhood.

It's relatively easy to see that "the cloud doesn't obscure the sky". The cloud is everything--- thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions, situations; the sky, our natural awakeness. It's a bit more tricky sometimes to see that the "sky doesn't obscure the cloud", that emptiness doesn't negate embodiment, emotion, relationship, or even thoughts.

And in truth, I don't really know for sure exactly what they're mapping with this new model at KFD. I guess part of what I was saying above was: what's the big deal? What's new here? It feels almost like putting some basic fundamental teachings into a format that suggests a strict sequence of stages. I often feel with these new hybrid maps that modern contemplatives come up with are more often descriptions of the map-maker's experience than anything universal. Like, first do this practice till you have this insight; now do this practice here till you have this insight, next... and so on, re-capitulating that teacher's path. That's really inspiring if you share a temperament and style with that teacher enough to benefit, but... it comes off as a bit grandiose when it's universalized, like this is THE set of practices, THE stages, THE experiences, and what they mean.

"And in truth, I don't really know for sure exactly what they're mapping
with this new model at KFD. I guess part of what I was saying above was:
what's the big deal? What's new here? It feels almost like putting some
basic fundamental teachings into a format that suggests a strict
sequence of stages. I often feel with these new hybrid maps that modern
contemplatives come up with are more often descriptions of the
map-maker's experience than anything universal. Like, first do this
practice till you have this insight; now do this practice here till you
have this insight, next... and so on, re-capitulating that teacher's
path. That's really inspiring if you share a temperament and style with
that teacher enough to benefit, but... it comes off as a bit grandiose
when it's universalized, like this is THE set of practices, THE stages,
THE experiences, and what they mean."-- Jake

When I first saw that there was a re-mapping to include SEVEN stages-- I had to giggle: JUST like Adi Da! Quelle Surprise! In Adi Da's case, it's clear that the 'skeleton' is provided by the chakra system; 7 chakras, ergo-- seven stages of enlightenment. Nosing around in my venerable copy of The Enlightenment of the Whole Body to see how KF's & ADD's 7 stages correlate-- or not-- I noticed that there is a lot of interesting physiological information in that book. I will have to take a closer look; I didn't have as much interest in that 30 years ago as I do now. ... Interestingly, I am not finding the summary list of the 7 stages that I thought I remembered.

And here's a major difference: ADD's first 3 stages are about physical, social, and sexual maturity. [Which ADD always referred to as 'money, food, and sex'-- a phrase Ken Wilber took and ran with.] True spiritual practice only begins with the 4th [heart chakra] stage of development. All the physioenergetic stuff falls short of spiritual practice, until the 'higher' centers are online to direct those processes.

Hmm-- this turns out not to be quite 'on point'; but I think it's sorta interesting, so will post anyway.FWIW

- tried to cut this and move it somewhere more appropriate, but I'm not being allowed to: sorry

At some point I'm gonna have to get a copy of "The Enlightenment of the Whole Body", it sounds like an interesting period in Adi Da's teaching.

How much of any given map is, to Jake's point, based on the results of a particular technique? What is it we're really mapping? I'm in the camp that says the human body/mind/brain entity(ies) is so complex and variable, and out experience so vast and uncharted, that we could invent zillions of maps and claim them all to be correct.
/rambling rant.

-cmarti

Palabra

I have a very mutable, ambivalent take on maps: sometimes a good one points out something that was periforal as I was passing through the experiential territory. Sometimes the map has the oppressive feel of being stuck in bumper-to-bumper freeway traffic with a radio or GPS driving me mad with nattering commentary about that territory.

I think the synopsis CheleK posted of a Vajrayana take on what could be called 'qualities of progress' from Reggie Ray's excellent Secrets of the Vajra World is one of the former [he cited pg. 286, for those who have access to the book]-- as is Dragon's Play, a book I quoted at length elsewhere. And, come to think of it, what they have in common is that they are more expressions of the feel of things than something claiming scientific precision about a very limited-scope investigation.

Yeah, Dragon's Play stands for me as one of the most profound yet unassuming "maps" I've ever encountered. It makes no attempt to avoid the fact that it's an intensely personal, lived account of both unfolding processes and timeless facets of awakening; and yet for its experiential quality it seems to evoke qualities and processes which any human could relate to.

And it does a particularly fantastic job of expressing the non-linear (but far from static) interplay of processes and facets, or the temporal opening to the timeless facets as expressed in the twelve pictures, so that each 'stage" is like a fractal of the whole of awake being, and the process is not one of attainment but of letting go of what we think we need and know in order to discover 'what else is true' of our existence, to just open up to a more and more complete view of what is. Love it.