Dan's Powers Talk at BG

So the Powers talk that Dan gave at BG came up on another thread, and someone suggested I give it a listen and any comment. I will wait on comment, and would be interested in others' comments anyway. But in the interests of sanity, I have reproduced below my brief notes on a talk that was so high speed and chaotic I literally started breathing faster in sympathetic response. (I've met Dan, he's a fun guy, but dude, I can't keep up!)

Here's my notes, typed out as I listened. I've edited for my own spelling, punctuation and to add verbs where necessary, and have grouped a few things in a different order than he said them (ie he lists various types of powers, and I grouped those together). I have numbered my notes, so that if we discuss later it's easier to refer to "point 1" etc.

1) Various types of powers:
-remote viewing, for instance.
-Auditory: hearing celestial music, hearing voices, etc.
-Physical: bodily sensations/experiences, or manipulating physiological things, telekenesis
-Archetypal powers/psychological powers: experiences like magickal experiences of deities - things that have meaning, mythic resonance.
-Energetic powers: raptures, affecting other people, kundalini stuff…
-Time distortions - seeming to jump around in time.
-Out of body experiences, archetypal adventures, fun, recreation in those realms. As well as the wisdom gained from seeing what the mind can do…
-intuitive practices, predictions, suddenly knowing things…

2) Typical for powers to be spontaneous happening, for unknown reasons. Let's call this "Passive powers". "Active powers" - still "spontaneous" from a "high dharma" perspective but done with intention, deliberately.

3) Traditions like shamanism use powers experiences used to help a community, to understand the world. That's the path. Talking to plants, becoming animals, prophecy, healing things - from headaches to who knows what might be possible.

4) Benefits:
-You can learn about yourself, your psyche, fears, desires, etc. in a deeper way than available in normal modes.
-Besides having FUN!
-Empowerment: emotional power to change what you are feeling! So useful! You can "cast a spell of radiant happiness" which can be healing, empowering…

5) Buddhism:
-In Buddhism there are the Brahmaviharas: divine abidings…loving kindness, sympathetic joy, equanimity - so appropriate to cultivate. We can cultivate as jhana states, etc….then you can project them into the world and change the feel of a room, change the experiences of the people around you, even if it doesn't really affect the universe, it feels so amazing to you why not do it!
-Buddha was totally into the powers - demonstrating them, using them to get people into the tradition, praising those who were using powers, though sometimes condemning them…as distraction, danger, etc.
-Dharma - chock full of powers. instructional, etc. Tibetans - primary path - visualizations, merging with deities, etc….Theravada has more practical take… though not practiced as much. Zen, pretty much says it's all distraction - just experiences, don't take them too seriously. Moksha.

6) signal to noise ratio is huge… so we never really know if they are working. some of it is delusional. some wrong. but wow, some is really amazing and hard to explain!

7) Powers are not uncommon:
-knowing who is on the phone, knowing that someone is looking at you, knowing something about others, traveling out of body. meditators often have these little things happen…
-universal human experiences. should bring us together!

8 ) Pragmatic dharma approach:
-Take some of each, balance some humor with it.
-Careful in the unbundling. Taking best of each practice… vs remembering that these things are bundled, benefit from the framework, containers, bundles that the traditions provide… you have to find that balance yourselves…

9) Sangha: in modern context powers alienate people - considered weird, not talked about… secret - how often does anyone talk about these things or cultivating them? you'd get laughed at, like me now doing this talk! they can be frightening, destabilizing, freakouts, arrogance, etc. - we need sangha - the wisdom of those who have mature relationships to them, etc.

10) what's good about the powers? (see also Benefits, #4 above)

They are FRICKING FUN! Such a party! It's hard to explain. Amazing. Totally cool!
And useful! You can have intuitions and do healing and explore your psychology…

11) Downsides/cautions:
-BUT they can make you cuckoo. You are intentionally hallucinating. If you are somewhat crazy, don't go there. Don't do it. But if you are in a good place, a better time to go there.
- Having a lot of training: safer. Get into a tradition where they do the preparatory stuff. It's good to do the preparatory stuff.
-What do I mean by crazy? Pentecostals speak in tongues! Wild and interesting stuff at church - but at work they DON'T do that. Boundaries. Knowing when to stop. So that's important. If it's interfering with your relationships or work, then it's a problem.
-Talk to someone, and shut it down or find better way of relating to them.
-Get real help if needed.
-I don't want to advocate these things and have someone have something bad happen.

12) Ethics, more cautions:
-Wrong concentration: we have to treat concentration like a flame thrower. It must be focused, and on target. Random intentions or psychotic intentions must be shut down. People can have powers, live in another paradigm than a scientific materialist… which can make us have conflict, social problems. If your "tribe" doesn't like powers, then keep that in mind. Your boss might not need to know. We live in community, socially, need to take that into consideration.
-Also can give you a big head - neglecting real life experience and utility in favor of trying to use "powers" to do all kinds of stuff a la Harry Potter. Ethical challenges. So sticky.
-Anything you would not do verbally or physically, never do with the powers. in case you aren't sure where the ethical lines are.
-private powers (personal experiences)… vs public powers (affecting others) - the latter are where ethics are a problem, such as trying to steal your boss's wife, etc. Real care needed.

13) Dharma related benefits/relating to insight:
- Diagnosing stages of insight, such as A&P, when people tend to have spontaneous powers experiences. really common. Dark night can have visions of violence, death, creepy stuff. Of course needs to be evaluated in context of larger practice…
-Causality: complicated. powers can teach you things about it… sense of connection to ancestors, family dynamics. Insight into immediate causality intention leading to effects. Inspiration - temptation! - to practice concentration, because more concentration yields more powers. And concentration can lead to awakenings, get you into your meditaiton. So that's good.
-Also you can see the true nature of phenomena, so insight can arise. a) morality b) concentration c) powers d) insight, seeing intrinsic luminosity, impermanence, emptiness - easier in realm of powers because of the dream like quality, except they are your full experience, thus used as primary path because they are so transformative….
-Also good to learn if you want to teach, since students will run into them, so might as well know about it. Good to have network of wisdom to reach out to…

Damn. Well done.

Thanks Ona, similar to you, having met Daniel he is a wonderful guy - I just don't have the 'software' to match the details at speed!
I was never very interested in the powers and before starting a practice, didn't really believe them either but I seem to have experienced them manifesting through me over the past few months and now I am interested to find out more, if nothing other than to ensure noble intentions and wisdom prevail - better to accept and manage it, than ignore it, if its there.

So was there any discussion about how to develop, refine, manifest such powers? My experience has been they just pop up and you realise something 'extra' is happening, or if someone actually notices something different, better or just weird.

Okay, some reflections, in no particular order:

A good number of people get in touch with me to talk about "powers" sorts of experiences, because I wrote about a lot of that stuff happening in my practice. There are generally two THREE (insert Spanish Inquisition joke here) kinds of people in these situations:

a) those really fascinated by what happened, and wanting validation, encouragement and tips for making more of it happen
b) those really frightened by it, and wanting it to go away
c) those not really bothered by it, as it is an acceptable if not particularly interesting or important experience, or it fits comfortably within their framework, world view, etc.

The latter are rarer, because most people who contact me are secular/atheist/materialist, and find what might be normal as "religious experience" disturbing (or fascinating). And the latter types don't need to call someone like me to ask advice, because they live in a context where there's no problem to solve in regards to "powers" stuff happening.

In the case of fascination (type a), there is often a bigger picture "problem" of escapism or power-seeking. People who feel uncomfortable with their ordinary lives, want to feel gifted or special, etc. tend to be very excited about cultivating more "powers. This can range from mild-normal human behavior to mental-illness levels.

In the case of fear (type b), there is often a bigger picture "problem" of fear, which can range from an anxiety prone or controlling-type (but functional) personality, to PTSD effects or mental-illness levels of problem.

In the case of people who have a world view that embraces such things as normal (type c), there's is very little "OMG" at all - I talk to people every day, as a Catholic, who happily recount how this or that happened, and don't think it's weird. Little "miracles," the way ones guardian angel saved one from a robbery or being hit by a car, visions, dreams, ecstatic experiences, and so forth are just normal. Some might make a good story to share. I had an hour long chat with a woman yesterday about how she did prayers to drive evil out of her mother's house (not technically an exorcism, but a lay person's equivalent) and how cups were falling off the shelves, doors slamming, etc while she prayed, and she was unafraid and determined to finish to the last word, and make sure nothing nasty was left in the house. These are just "cup of coffee" conversations. So cultural context is a big factor.

That said, in the context of people in situation a or b, the related factor that comes into play is that they are usually wanting to wake up. Or at least they say they want to wake up. But the relationship to powers stuff can often get really tangled up in that. If they have a strong fear response, and cannot find the courage to sit through bumpy weird stuff, it can greatly impede their ability to practice. However if a person is so unnerved by, say, kriyas, or a vivid dream, that that impedes their sitting, they are also often unable to sit with various sorts of emotional upheavals, memories, and such that may also arise in life. If the fear is that big a hindrance, therapy is often helpful to safely explore the underlying fears (of losing control, of being vulnerable or unsafe, etc.) that might be latent.

If a person is obsessed and wants more powers, even if just to "make things interesting" or "have fun," then in terms of awakening-related practice one has that bigger picture hindrance to work with. There may be a belief that awakening is about being super-powered, or having really cool experiences all the time, or feeling blissed out all the time, and a big escapism tendency that makes being present with Now very difficult. Even if discouraged from pursuing "powers" such people will often just keep switching traditions/practices, trying to keep up and improve the access to altered states, chase after unusual experiences, and evaluate their "progress" based on how many cool experiences they are having.

So all that to say I have found very few cases where pursuing powers stuff is part of a healthy practice. Even, I might add, in Santeria, where anything and everything Dan mentioned is normal, cultivated for, and not a problem, the fact is that many, many people spend a lot of time fearing being hexed, hexing other people, and sending their gods and spirits on errands to win the lottery, get the girl, and other worldly matters. From an awakening-oriented perspective, let alone a Christian perspective, this is a huge waste of time and causes a lot of suffering.

So I'm not very convinced by "OMG IT'S FUN!!" as a "benefit." And I'm not at all clear on why Dan is so interested in this stuff. Who knows, maybe in 5 or 10 years I'll be living in a cave, staring at a candle flame, and making rain fall on drought-starved Brazil. But at the moment it seems both pragmatically, and world-view-wise, like a waste of time and a cause of suffering, and best left alone. I'll leave it at that, though I'm sure there's a hundred tangents to follow and unravel, if anyone wants to...

Thoughts?

Perhaps also relevant - I had really intense "powers" stuff go on for several years, and also a background in Santeria/Spiritism/Palo, where such things were cultivated. So I had foundation training in how to cultivate for it and deal with it, and when stuff came up spontaneously in meditation practice, I indulged it to the max. However, in the couple years after my initial awakening, these experiences spontaneously dried up. I liked them! So I was quite disappointed at first, and then gradually found myself NOT wanting them, which surprised me. I do not cultivate for them now, nor do they happen, at least not in any way that I notice, though there may be subtle ways in which such things happen. That is, part of the drying up may also be a normalizing where one gets used to something that used to be novel, and then doesn't notice it anymore - perhaps. i don't know.

In my current "situation" it would be profoundly wrong to ask for any sort of experience "just for fun", and I have no desire to do so. I cannot generate the desire to do so. Now and then I am emotionally moved by a tragedy (a friend's illness or personal troubles, for instance) and may do a special round of prayers asking that they be safe, healed, or whatever is relevant, if God so wills. There can be quite a bit of intense "intention" in those activities. But I can't do that unless I'm heart-moved to do it. That is, if you call me up and ask me to pray that you win the lottery, I can't do that. There's no will to do it. It would feel weird and wrong to even try.

I would agree in the sense that powers are all still within and subject to mind and ego paradigm, as far as I can see, and so potentially can distract from the main spiritual path of awakening (I felt it helpful to define that since there are many spiritual paths I guess) and here I think the 'via negativa' keeps things clear and straight - its not this, its not that, its not there etc.

Rod wrote: I would agree in the sense that powers are all still within and subject to mind and ego paradigm, as far as I can see, and so potentially can distract from the main spiritual path of awakening (I felt it helpful to define that since there are many spiritual paths I guess) and here I think the 'via negativa' keeps things clear and straight - its not this, its not that, its not there etc.

I cross posted with your earlier post, btw, so it was not written in response to what you had said.

It's too bad he didn't just present these ideas... it's probably the best argument for "white" majick that I've read:

integrateddaniel.info/magick-and-the-brahma-viharas/

The main point of the article is quoted below (from my point of view):

"32.This leads to the obvious question: how does one train the mind to be clear, steady, concentrated, compassionate, loving, appreciative of the successes of others and equanimous? These, obviously, are the Brahma Viharas, qualities that often get overlooked in many magickal discussions, but I will claim are the key to Optimal Magick, with Optimal Magick being defined as the best magick that one could have come up with in that set of circumstances.
33.For those not familiar with the Brahma Viharas, they are:
1.Loving-Kindness (Metta): the natural well-wishing for one's self and all beings.
2.Compassion (Karuna): the natural wishing that the suffering of one's self and all beings will cease.
3.Sympathetic Joy (Mudita): the natural appreciation of the successes, good fortunes and joys of ourselves and all beings.
4.Equanimity (Upekkha): the feeling of peace that comes from realizing that all beings are the true heirs of their karma and that their well-being depends on their actions, and not on our wishes for them."

Yeah, that article is much more organized and comprehensive and in-depth than the talk was. (ETA: I'll read it more closely tomorrow.) That said, I guess I think (at a skim) that article posits a broadness to the definition of magick/powers that includes just about every thought, activity and intention known to humankind. I'm not sure the category is useful in any way if it gets that broad.

Ona:

So I'm not very convinced by "OMG IT'S FUN!!" as a "benefit." And I'm not at all clear on why Dan is so interested in this stuff. Who knows, maybe in 5 or 10 years I'll be living in a cave, staring at a candle flame, and making rain fall on drought-starved Brazil. But at the moment it seems both pragmatically, and world-view-wise, like a waste of time and a cause of suffering, and best left alone.

I'm not sure any category of "fun" activity needs to be renounced as a "waste of time" if it causes one to deeply consider the morality/ethics of specific experiences or things that this fun activity is designed to bring forth. It seems that, if one practices the powers ethically, in the morally skillful way Daniel advocates, then the preparatory work for any spell, which is actually a key part of the spell itself, would be a meditation in how the practitioner relates skillfully to others, himself or herself, and the world. And, if things do get out of hand, unbalanced, with fear and obsession or (eek) ill will, it would seem that those effects would also be instructive and therefore self-limiting unless one is just some kind of ogre in the first place.

About the categories, A, B, and C--I'm not sure in which I would find myself. I suspect I'm a little of all three--that is, after recent stream entry, I suddenly and automatically just had hard jhana states, including Boundless Space. And the whole Review phase I really did suddenly become obsessed with this stuff where I had absolutely no interest at all before. As if second path weren't confusing enough as it is, I'm also having to figure out what is up with this jhana/powers stuff that is so intensely calling me. Those sits are the only ones that seem to make sense anymore. So what to do when the spontaneous draw and effects do start manifesting? Is the only sound, ethical response really just renunciation of that calling?

Oh--I should probably take my personal things to my journal. Sorry. I hope something that I'm wondering or indirectly asking will be generalize-able to others by way of response.

You have a very interesting history, it seems.

I always assume that talking about the powers is a lot like talking about sex....everyone lies.

I used to explore the powers in college but ...wasn't everyone? I just like vanilla powers now like everyone else.
No, of course I don't have a shrine/wand/dungeon....I just go to a cathedral where they keep all that stuff and participate. No sir, no coven for me.
I have tons of compassion but no, wouldn't think of using the powers to help anyone or myself or a student....
No, they aren't fun and scary and entertaining, they are for serious "Gods will" stuff only.

I also assume the more kinky magical you are, the more you would be motivated to lie.
I also assume people have explored the idea that there may be interested parties looking for self qualifying "volunteers"
Just some fun thoughts....
~D

Jenny Foerst wrote: Ona:

So I'm not very convinced by "OMG IT'S FUN!!" as a "benefit." And I'm not at all clear on why Dan is so interested in this stuff. Who knows, maybe in 5 or 10 years I'll be living in a cave, staring at a candle flame, and making rain fall on drought-starved Brazil. But at the moment it seems both pragmatically, and world-view-wise, like a waste of time and a cause of suffering, and best left alone.

I'm not sure any category of "fun" activity needs to be renounced as a "waste of time"....

Oh what a giveaway! (I do tend to be very serious. But I find being very serious perfectly fun!!)

Ona:

That said, I guess I think (at a skim) that article posits a broadness to the definition of magick/powers that includes just about every thought, activity and intention known to humankind. I'm not sure the category is useful in any way if it gets that broad.

I have the lucky advantage of having read the huge new draft Powers part Daniel has added to MCTB2. Although, from one perspective, I understand your point here as related to that too-rapid talk, Daniel's new Powers part in MCTB leads elegantly from considerations grounded in intention/morality training in general, into the more properly occult magickal extensions (with warnings galore), and then full circle back into Moral Training via the brahmavihāras as the safest, most effective, and most Path-consistent and Path-augmenting practice. I nearly wept when I read it, for it is going to be great; I'm very excited about this addition to the book because I have not been able to find such a thorough, deeply dharma-focused treatment of the subject anywhere else.

This said, I sometimes think that the occult magickal (Western tradition) content is there primarily because, as a pre-Buddhist teenager, Dan dabbled in this tradition. It could therefore come across to some as a personal-history digression rather than teaching; however, not to put words in his mouth or pen, I am guessing that Dan thinks that many meditators will wander into those practices, so it is important to address them and acknowledge that head-on and contextualize them within the Three Trainings (Morality, Concentration, Wisdom).

And he makes the point in the BATGAP interview that, for the Tibetan Buddhists, the powers constitute primary path to awakening--which is an interesting point.

Jenny Foerst wrote: And he makes the point in the BATGAP interview that, for the Tibetan Buddhists, the powers constitute primary path to awakening--which is an interesting point.

I'm not entirely sure what I think about this characterization. I've heard it a couple times lately and it's prompted me to reflect. The subset of Tibetan approaches that this might apply most directly to is the Tantric stuff but I'm just not sure that the ritual practices (mantra, visualization, chanting, mudra, feasts, etc.) are primarily done in a 'magickal' way with that intent (to cultivate powers). [ETA: I guess it depends on how strict our definition of magick is and whether we see a difference between religious rituals in general and magickal rituals]. Another branch where it might be closer to accurate would be the shamanic strains in Tibetan lineages. But with the latter case (like in the 9 Ways of Bon) the shamanic ways are pretty explicitly not oriented towards awakening, but rather to the normal aims of shamanic practices (healing, divination, etc). So only indirectly related to awakening.

Maybe the most sense I can make out of the claim is with a looser understanding of Magick in which the ritual practices could be looked at as spells that invoke certain qualities and capacities which can be related directly to awakening (emptiness, compassion, clarity). But generally my impression of the powers in Tibetan lineages is that they are treated about the same as in other traditions: i.e., they are known to occur spontaneously for many people along the path, they can be big distractions, they could be signs of progress along the way, they could have practical uses which in itself could be a distraction from the path....

Hmm, it's making me reflect anyway. I guess a good case could actually be made that ritual = magick (in a broader sense of magick), in which case the Catholic Mass would count as magick because (as I understand it from the outside) the priest is supposed to be in a special state of prayer at least at the crucial part of the ritual if not through the whole thing, and that state sounds similar to a state of 4th jhanna, which is a traditional jumping-off point for powers cultivation in Theravada. Shinzen Young has some interesting stuff to say about this and about the powers in general in his Sounds True series "The Science of Enlightenment".

Jenny - can you say more about how/why the morality angle jumps out at you as particularly important/interesting? That's an uncommon reaction (in my experience) in relation to "powers"

Jake - I think the definitions here are pretty loose, and context makes a big difference (what a secular Westerner or even a convert sees in a Tibetan ritual, versus how it is understood by a Tibetan Buddhist with decades in the tradition). Re: the Mass, one quirk is that it actually doesn't matter if the priest is paying attention. The ritual form in and of itself accomplishes the result. It's good for the priest's spiritual development if he's paying attention and focused, and most priests find celebrating Mass very profound and spiritually refreshing, but if he's thinking about his shopping list and rattling the ritual off from memory, it still works.

This is typical for ritual in Santeria, too, by the way. Your personal altered state, level of concentration, etc is not the key to efficacy. Following the "recipe" is required. The recipe may require pre-requisites like you having been initiated in certain ways, having certain ritual objects that require ceremonial process, etc. Those are part of the recipe.

I don't know if it is true in other traditions.

But it points to something I think may be important. It's not about you. It's not a way to entertain yourself, or have fun experiences. The ritual practices are sacred activities; there is often enormous responsibility to the community that comes with initiations into priesthoods or monastic positions. It's not something for your own self-improvement either. It's something done for others: for community, for God, and so on.

Here is some very well written interesting information about magick and powers and such...
www.buddhistgeeks.com/2009/05/bg-121-the...k-of-western-magick/
By the author Alan Chapman .........Preview - www.krizma-ebooks.com/books/Advanced%20M...0for%20Beginners.pdf
buy it - www.amazon.com/Advanced-Magick-Beginners...hapman/dp/1904658415

Jake:

I'm not entirely sure what I think about this characterization. I've heard it a couple times lately and it's prompted me to reflect. The subset of Tibetan approaches that this might apply most directly to is the Tantric stuff but I'm just not sure that the ritual practices (mantra, visualization, chanting, mudra, feasts, etc.) are primarily done in a 'magickal' way with that intent (to cultivate powers).

I don't know for sure, but it certainly seemed to me when I attended a Tibetan Buddhist center for a year, with a highly realized geshe from Tibet teaching these things, that the visualizations, Medicine Buddha pujas, sādhanās, and mantras were very much magickal and either implicitly or explicitly part of at least the lower Tantric practices. Even daily "guru devotion" practice, the main daily practice given to beginners, was quite magickal, in that it involved merging to some extent with other entities beyond some conventional "realm" of being. Most of these practices involved very elaborate visualizations and merging with deities, one's teacher, and the Buddha himself (or buddhas themselves), the goal of the diety ones explicitly being to "cultivate divine pride." This all kind of wigged me out, for I was reared a little Lutheran girl and was coming off 2 decades as a secular existentialist who wanted no part of magical anything, not even God, prayer, any of that--which is one reason I quit in favor of the more down-to-earth Theravada. Now here I am, thinking I should pay a new visit to the local Tibetan center!

Here is an example: the geshe would usually come into the gompa, sit, and close his eyes. He was friggin' reading us, you know? You could feel it, and he would take his time. On a few Wednesday nights, which was when he sat with the few of us who showed up for these special meditation teachings, he would teach these lower tantric practices: visualizations, mantras, and weird breathing patterns. And that heat-cultivating meditation--can't remember what it is called. Anyway, for about 6 weeks, he would come in, close his eyes in silence for a good 5 minutes, and then he would start saying that someone among us was thinking of committing suicide. He would talk about this for a while, and then he would tell us he was going to do some chanting, by himself, and all we needed to do was listen, for this chant would prevent the type of premature death that suicide effects.

So, in my book . . . the Tibetan Buddhists are definitely practicing magick, and lots of it, all the time!

Dream Walker:

I used to explore the powers in college but ...wasn't everyone? I just like vanilla powers now like everyone else.

Inadvertently, you just added 15 minutes to our rapidly forthcoming phone conversation. . . .

Ona:

But it points to something I think may be important. It's not about you. It's not a way to entertain yourself, or have fun experiences. The ritual practices are sacred activities; there is often enormous responsibility to the community that comes with initiations into priesthoods or monastic positions. It's not something for your own self-improvement either. It's something done for others: for community, for God, and so on.

Perhaps because I'm proceeding under a Theravada paradigm rather than a Christian one these days, I'm not sure I follow all these distinctions. My understanding, at least in terms set out by my current tradition, is that when we improve ourselves that improvement benefits others. And I did listen to Daniel's talk (which he should have consulted me on for an edit, but then the North Carolina highway engineers never consult me, either, for some reason beyond fathoming)--and I don't think he is saying that "having fun" is sufficient reason to cultivate the powers and use them. I think he is saying, in his typical way, "Oh, and, by the way, these things you can do with your mind are just so cool, so fascinating." Maybe he is a little too fascinated a model, for fascination is well . . . hmm. . . . Anyway, his particular take on spiritual life seems to be that one shouldn't renounce the good life, fun, pleasure, a good living, or any of that just for the sake of renunciation. He points out in MCTB that people on renunciation trips can get very neurotic about it all. At any rate, he doesn't advocate carelessness or even carefree-ness with regard to these practices. I think the "fun" factor is just Daniel being Daniel, because, as you said, he's a fun sort of guy.

You asked about what jumped out at me with regard to the morality angle. Okay. On August 8 stream entry happened. Immediately after that event, I was in jhana states, hard ones, and now formless ones, and I also started hanging out in the Powers section on the DhO, which I had never had any interest in before. Review phase felt just like a long A&P stage, with all this sudden interest on my part in jhanas, intention, and powers. As I started to ask others and read, though, the deeper I delved, the more acutely foregrounded ethics and morality were to me. That loose (broad?) definition that Daniel gives for magick made me start seeing my ordinary mundane choices in daily life as having vast, profound consequences. This perspective revamped my morality training, in short. At some point I think I told Dream Walker, "There's nothing like thinking about the possibility of power to bring all this moral awareness to the foreground, compellingly."

Thanks, Jenny - yes, sometimes themes jump to the foreground like you describe, and suddenly something that didn't seem very interesting or relevant is HUGELY relevant. Makes sense.

You don't need to defend Dan to me, at least, by the way. I like the guy - we had a long skype call today which was much fun (!!) - and I am not criticizing him or his ideas in a personal way (or not intending to) as much as using them as a jumping off point for pondering different themes that come up in response. I've been around a lot of the uglier side (or time wasting side) of people engaging in what they think of as "powers", which colors my responses. It's a complicated subject, which makes for an interesting rambling discussion here, which I am enjoying.

Jenny Foerst wrote:
So, in my book . . . the Tibetan Buddhists are definitely practicing magick, and lots of it, all the time!

Haha, yes, your points are well taken and your Geshe sounds like a 'heavy' lama. This is an interesting topic and it got me reflecting. I think I was really just wondering about the characterization of Vajrayana as a Path in which the Powers were the driver, the main practice, the vehicle. Powers are definitely treated pretty explicitly in Vajrayana and Shamanic Buddhism (closely related in Tibet) and there are practices which are specifically for cultivating them. But my instinct keeps telling me that they are not the vehicle, but rather they are territory that particular vehicle travels through, like an airplane travels through clouds, more so than with many other vehicles, like cars or rickshaws. I dunno though, I may just be being contrary I've never been contrary before but there's a first time for everything

I started out with Vajrayana stuff in my early twenties and did that for about ten years (not everyday, maybe a couple times a week average). Then I hit MCTB and practiced intensely in a more prag dharma way for a while and now have been returning a bit to practicing the ritual practices I learned many years ago. I've always resonated more with a Vajrayana view and style than most other paths and certainly way more than Prag Dharma culture, even though I've benefited greatly from the latter's community and teachings. Anyhow:

So, funny story (especially as I'm being so contrary about this). As I said I've been engaging in ritual practice more lately. Part of the practice session involves transforming into a wrathful deity, doing that mantra, and making some offerings to the Guardians (which are like heavy-duty wrathful but enlightened protectors of the dharma-- you know, with the teeth and fiery backgrounds and wide open eyes).

I had also been reflecting on teachings regarding the Guardians about how they can intervene to protect one from ripening bad karma. But it's said they don't just take it away; it's said they kind of divert it into a lesser consequence so you can still experience the purification of it coming up to be let go of but without dying, being crippled, going crazy, what have you. So, my ex, who lives in the next town, has our son a couple nights a week and since he's in kindergarten now she comes to my town to pick him up from school on those days. A few weeks ago on one of those days I had started my day early so was coming home a bit early and the timing was right to pass them on the road after she picked him up, so I thought of them. (This road between our two towns is a country highway. Beautiful views, very woodsy. Also, many locals like to drive really fast and as it's merely a two lane road you see a lot of 'caterpillars': lines of cars impatiently following one slow driver, taking turns passing them, and not infrequently one sees dangerous passes.)

Suddenly in an instant as I drove a complex mental-emotional formation arose. These were the components but it was parralel processing, not linear, so they all popped up simultaneously while my outer senses and body were still consciously oriented in physical space, a rather unique and striking experience:

1) a vivid image of her car off the road, smoking, both of them severely hurt and possibly dead 2) a more abstract thought that was like a spatial glimpse of a 4D timeline: that by being at a certain spot on the road at a precise time, another car would pass her aggressively and cause her to go off the road and flip her car 3) another abstract understanding that the guardians (one in particular who has a connection with worldly stuff as well as spiritual stuff) were in that very moment intervening to mediate this arising of her karma and they were going to disrupt her travel so she would not be at that spot on the road at that bad time.

Well, needless to say I just shrugged and kept on rolling down the road

A few minutes later as I approached my small town, slowing down as the speed limit dropped, sure enough there they were driving towards me with a line of cars behind them, my ex driving well under the speed limit I was about to wave when suddenly BAM blue lights: a Sheriff pulled out from behind the line of cars and zipped to pull my people over. I thought "wow that was weird-- she wasn't speeding or anything!". When I got home I waited a bit then checked in with her. Turns out her inspection had expired. But she was very irritated and the encounter with the Sheriff had really pushed her buttons; it felt to her like a really big deal, a sort of personal existential offense that Universe had committed against her.

But the must galling thing to her was that he had pulled her over for the same thing already twenty minutes before on her way in! She said the second time, the time I had seen, he looked befuddled and he didn't recognize her until she said "Sir, you JUST pulled me over and ticketed me for this!!". Then he suddenly snapped to with a surprised look and apologized and let her go (she wasn't impressed and pointed out he was older and hypothesized he was becoming senile). I didn't say anything to her about my intuition etc. but I thought, "wow, maybe when things go sideways for me and life gets annoying, I should just be thankful-- getting pulled over twice is a lot better than dying in a car wreck... holy shit!"

Oh, and by the way, that was the second time I have seen the Sheriff in my town since I moved here a year ago... and he is pretty elderly

Jake,

That's a great story, and I'm glad they are okay.

I think I see what you mean by your distinction in Vajrayana between "driver" and "terrain." So I'm thinking that you are wondering whether Daniel's assessment that they are taking powers as primary path is accurate. I have much, much less experience of Tibetan Buddhism than you, so I really wouldn't know. Have you tried to talk to Dan about it? Would be interesting, I bet.

Our geshe sure did seem to always be reading minds, at least, in the psychic powers sense. He is an extremely humble teacher, btw: He always refused to sit on a higher throne, and he would divert other usual devotional rituals aimed at him, again out of a genuine humility. He also typically called everyone a dharma friend and didn't take on the appellation "guru" or "teacher." So he was a model of humility, kindness, and compassion, but students did find it challenging that he was so reluctant to be one's personal teacher. I'm guessing he was trying to adapt to Western egalitarian modes, but people wanted him to take on role of teacher.

Although I'm not sure I'd want to immerse myself back in Tibetan practice, I think I will consider going for those Wednesday night events again if they are going on still. It is pretty intense to sit with someone that highly realized, regardless of what kind of mediation is practiced.

I found the visualization meditations and all the lore there overwhelming back when I went. One of the reasons I left is that I felt I hadn't even nailed breath meditation, and there tended to be only two levels at that Center: extremely advanced Tantric, and super-beginner level. I needed something in-between.

Jenny Foerst wrote: Have you tried to talk to Dan about it? Would be interesting, I bet.
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Hmm I'd never thought of that, it's just something that's been rattling around in my head. I think it's just a pet peeve with me-- the way Prag Dharma can sometimes reduce other traditions into its own frameworks and terminology and I feel stuff is lost in the translation. It only bothered me because I hadn't thought it through; now that the metaphor of the vehicle/territory distinction occurs to me, I'm intellectually satisfied that I've articulated the issue to myself and I don't have much invested in how others relate to the topic I remember a traditional story about a guy who was out in retreat for years in a cave mastering visualization and mantra practice and could manifest this really huge vivid wrathful deity in his meditations but he never grocked emptiness and when he died he was reborn as a powerful ghost in the form of that wrathful deity and he terrorized the valley people until a realized yogi who was passing through 'liberated' him. A cautionary tale about NOT making the powers the primary path, and pretty standard fare for Vajrayana's relationship with the powers in my experience. (Notice that the yogi who came passing through was obviously accomplished in terms of the powers: so the powers are important: but his path was a path of awakening, and the powers are a side effect of that path, especially when traversed with certain methods).

Jenny Foerst wrote: I found the visualization meditations and all the lore there overwhelming back when I went. One of the reasons I left is that I felt I hadn't even nailed breath meditation, and there tended to be only two levels at that Center: extremely advanced Tantric, and super-beginner level. I needed something in-between.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense! I've heard from lots of folks that Tibetan groups can be pretty untransparent. I have heard there is a lot of racism at work there actually, which kinda sucks.

I have experience with two Vajrayana groups which are structured very differently from each other. The Diamond Way groups are more clearly organized with practices being done in basically a traditional sequence (ngondro, then higher tantric practices, with Mahamudra view teachings all along the way). They teach openly about the whole path and markers along the path and there's lots of peer support available if you want to do the traditional sequences of practices, as well as explicit teachings on the different roles one may take-- layperson, monastic, yogi, and the various combinations, all of which have different lifestyles, vows etc. Then there's the Dzogchen Community of Namkhai Norbu which is also extremely transparent in terms of the whole path, but differs from the Diamond Way in that immediately we were given a whole huge tool kit of practices in the tantric, shamanic, and dzogchen categories alongside some minimal sutra (Mahayana) stuff. Then one was pretty much left to one's own devices to implement the practices as one saw fit. I have also visited a local Gelugpa monastic outpost but they seem to be pretty opaque in contrast to my experiences with the other two groups. That said they are super friendly and occasionally we go there for a Sunday ritual practice followed by tea and cookies. My son likes them! They are super warm.

Yeah . . . I was in a Gelugpa center. A lot of Mushroom Factor, impenetrable hierarchy, but very nice people, beautiful pujas, and book knowledge benefits for me from taking their canned Discovering Buddhism courses. I am glad that I took the courses, for I, too, do notice sometimes on DhO that people aren't getting some of the conceptual basics right. For example, people think that Buddhist enlightenment is supposed to eliminate all forms of suffering. Not so, never was so, but this sort of expectation is repeated and repeated, which seems to be because of holes, conflation, or blind spots in their knowledge of the basics.

Which reminds me, I need to get a better handle on the aggregates, ordinary book knowledge of them.

The Buddha (certainly the Pali canon Buddha) did say that awakening was the end of suffering, and that he taught suffering and its end - these are also the Third and Fourth Noble Truths. For me the pertinent question is, what is suffering? (the word used is 'dukkha' which people translate in different ways, I like 'unsatisfactoriness') In the Pali canon it's clear that the Buddha could feel physical discomfort and wanted to avoid it where possible, and that he could find things to be a hassle, so these obviously didn't fall into the category of 'suffering' he was talking about which was ended.