Children and Dharma

I've got two daughters, both 6 years old (yes, twins:)

I've been considering starting them on practice but I have concerns that they may not be able to handle or even completely understand what is happening to them when these processes start to happen on their own. I haven't been able to find much information about this (as in pretty much none). Does anyone have experience, comments or resources for information on this? is this dangerous and generally a bad idea?

I don't have kids, but from the perspective of a former child, there are pros and cons to being made to do stuff your parents think is good for you. I, for example, was swept up in my parents' jogging fad as a teen. That is, daily regimented jogging was required. As soon as I left home I quit, with great relief. I also had to take music lessons. I am glad I learned to play music, as it has come in handy and I really enjoyed playing in groups in high school and college. It's something I haven't done in years, though, as life has led me in other directions.

Dharma practice would be even more delicate, perhaps, but also quite important. Is it possible to introduce them to the idea of spending quiet meditation time daily without pushing any kind of hardcore or deep practice unless/until they express their own interest in it? Do they show any interest in joining you for sitting when you do it? Can they join you and come and go as their ability allows, rather than being forced to sit for specific amounts of time or in a certain way? Can you be open to them going through phases (especially perhaps during teen years) when they don't want to? And that's okay? Think of all the kids who flee church as soon as they can get away from home, because rather than being a pleasant and supportive part of their childhoods it was a dogmatic daily activity that crushed their sense of exploration and fun. For others, of course, church can be fun and supportive, and something to turn to for life. Especially at a very young age, making spiritual practice fun rather than onerous is probably a good idea.

PS - many people I know have had spiritual/mystical experiences in childhood or teen years that we never understood until many years later (from imaginary friends to nightmares to monsters under the bed, just for starters). Heck, we can have mystical/spiritual experiences as adults that are baffling and hard to understand. That part would be the least of my worries.

Ona's advice is sound, I think-- speaking as a single parent whose children are now approaching middle age! One of the advantages in thinking about this issue of how to present dharma/practice to kids-- especially kids as young as yours-- is that it can refine how you approach your own practice.

With kids, you don't want to make it into an ordeal, something to fight over, another thing the grownups are imposing on you 'for your own good.' The same lighthearted, playful approach; and willingness to put things into ordinary language and talk about whatever happens, whether it's visions or itches-- that works best with kids works best for me. At least that's what I've found.

Yes I totally I agree that hardcore regimented practice for a 6 year old (or anybody who is unwilling or uninformed for that matter) is an absurd idea in any situation I could imagine but my thought was that some delicate mindfulness training would help their general development. ? And if that seems reasonable what sort of techniques would be fun and safe for kids?

Well, if it were me, I'd think of it as 'noticing' practice; it wouldn't involve sitting down, necessarily; it would be at short, opportune moments-- rather than scheduled times-- when it could be a game you play together. Actually, there was a kid's guessing game we used to play, called 'I spy' that seems like a natural precursor to what I'm imagining. Come to think of it, a few of the old guessing games kids used to play [before they had gadgets with programs on them]-- were about paying attention to the things around them.

Well, if it were me, I'd think of it as 'noticing' practice; it wouldn't involve sitting down, necessarily; it would be at short, opportune moments-- rather than scheduled times-- when it could be a game you play together. Actually, there was a kid's guessing game we used to play, called 'I spy' that seems like a natural precursor to what I'm imagining. Come to think of it, a few of the old guessing games kids used to play [before they had gadgets with programs on them]-- were about paying attention to the things around them.


-kategowen

Ironically I spent several hours at a recent retreat playing "I spy" (it was to pass the time during group travel from the airport). I think it's slightly more fun for kids, but we actually had some good laughs, because grownups can "spy" more abstract and obscure things than kids.

Things that teach listening carefully are similar - for example learning to identify some bird songs or insect noises and listening for them while outside or hiking.

I have often thought that there is a bit of overlap in training the observing eye an artist uses and the kind of inner observation you do in some kinds of meditation - seeing things not as assumed categories (yellow bowl of red apples) but as they are (patterns of light and color). This is a technique you can develop when painting from life, so art projects can be another game perhaps.

All these also develop bits of concentration.

Pretending to "be" different kinds of emotions is interesting. Include "neutral" or "happy" emotions, too. This creates self-awareness and awareness that emotions change how the body/mind feel and how transitions from one to another feel. The rotating leader can call out which emotion to feel, and the others act it out while walking (or running) around the leader in a circle. (6 year old girls should be able to come up with elaborate rules for any of these games, no?) or the room can be divided into four sections, each one being a certain emotion (say: sad, happy, angry, peaceful)

Another is to pay attention to other senses - blindfolded tasting things or walking around can be fun. Guess which food you are tasting, guess what things are by touch alone, etc.)

(These also inspired by games played on a recent retreat.)

Just chucking ideas out there, inspired by Kate's game idea.

Well, my daughter likes stories, and the Buddha's story is one of many myths she enjoys. It contains some interesting pointers - the "divine messengers" (old age, sickness, death, happy smiling beggar monk), or the way he went from one teacher to another, or how he was all alone in the end to face his demons, or how the way he's commemorated gradually changed from fondly remembered beggar saint to golden statue in lavish temple offered gold leaf and incense sticks...

So the Buddha Myth can lead to some pretty good Dharma discussions. Also note that this isn't a story about exotic people living long ago doing mythical things - it's the story of every single person hearing it. Stories aren't spectator sports events. And other stories work just as well as the Buddha's. Movies, too!

As far as actual sitting practice goes - as a kid, my mother taught me some relaxation techniques taken from Autogenic Training. I had fun doing these, but it was never a hardcore thing. She'd remind me sometimes at night, when I claimed not being able to fall asleep, to do these "heavy arms and legs" exercises. It's served me pretty well. And my daughter enjoys it as well. I find it's a natural fit with the bedtime stories and talking about the past day and philosophizing to put off having to sleep already

And of course, kids often enjoy all kinds of mind games: playing with the different perspective out of the two eyes (cover one, cover the other... two eyes, but we see only one picture with both open!), listen to sounds become inaudible (for example, put an ear to a guitar, pluck a string, listen until you can't hear it any more), imagining scenarios, any one of the fun suggestions already made above... it certainly doesn't have to be straight-up 16-step Anapanasati out of the Pali Canon

Cheers,
Florian

As a therapist in training, I would can only recommend teaching kids the kind of dharma that deals with building a healthy sense of self. Teaching kids to pay attention to the way they feel (primarily in their bodies) after doing something skillful or unskillful can be helpful. The same. Basically, anything that shows just how much better we feel when we help others rather than hurt them.

Activities that build self-efficacy are extremely important. Encouraging the development of skills (not just dharma) builds confidence and perseverence. This is the foundation of self-esteem (not the other way around). Having good self-esteem leads to respect for one's self, which means that it's possible to for a child to believe they're worth the effort it takes to be truly happy.

Jack Engler is famous for saying, "you have to be somebody before you can be nobody." Becoming a somebody happens in childhood.

Although I've probably said more than enough already, I just would want to add an explicit caution: there is a significant danger that what is communicated to our children-- if we're not REALLY careful-- in any 'training program', teaching effort of any sort, is that we fail to appreciate them precisely as they are, for who they are. That we need to 'improve' them. [Insert hoary-but-true old quotes from The Prophet here, about children not being here for us, but for their own purposes.]

My current state of understanding is that the first job of parenthood is 'unconditional high regard' -- or, more colloquially, adoration. The three Wise Men knew what they were doing.

Kate - have you ever met a single soul who was raised that way??? You could put the shrinks out of business... Think of Jackson's future!

@kate

Nice.
That has always been my attitude toward parenting as well. However most (all) of my parenting friends thought I was spoiling my kids

Now that I have a wonderful 16-year-old and 18-year-old I'm convinced I had the right idea. However, Ona, they've both had issues here and there requiring therapy - just like their dad

Yeah, this topic could even include a discussion of the relationship between psychological and spiritual development (in a practical down to earth sense, not in a purely theoretical sense).

For instance, especially when he was a baby but now too that he is a toddler, I occasionally seem to share experiences of deep connection with Ivan beyond duality, as if for a moment we are resting in the natural state together in mutual understanding.

Yet in terms of psychological/cognitive development, it is clear that if I were to refer to or articulate this experience in my own terms, he would not be equipped or inclined to follow it. So I think there can be a shared "vibing" at dharmic frequencies which, while appreciated in an instinctual way by children or adults who don't think of themselves as spiritual, would not be acknowledgable on a verbal, explicit level, as it would be interpreted as an experience being had by a separate self. While this sort of thing may be the bane of committed practitioners-- Trungpa's spiritual materialism, the attempt of ego to "acquire" enlightenment-- it just might be a very, very healthy part of being a personal self.

To have a connection to spiritual qualities like peace, mindful clarity, joy in being, etc could be a very solid foundation for building a sense of self that is permeable, open, flexible, respectful, capable of relaxing and capable of meeting challenges, and so on. So I think sharing such felt-experiences is more important than conceptually defining them for children in "dharmic" terms.

Then there is the fact that children learn by copying behavior, not by following their caregivers' injunctions. But I suspect Duane that you are not inclined to "tell" them stuff so much as share activities like sitting and so on. Bringing in the developmental aspect, we humans do seem to pass through stages in childhood in which magical and mythic stories are really compelling. Unlike adults who sometimes rigidly adhere to them in a literal way, I often notice that children really like to "make believe" and have an intuitive sense of allegory-- of the "moral" of the story. I think it could be a really healthy thing to share spiritually significant stories (perhaps from many traditions) with children in a light hearted way, especially if they illustrate truths that kids are experiencing but not able to conceptually articulate. A good story could help them to solidify a sense of what to take away from difficult experiences, and give them perspective when such things happen again (bully at school, death of a pet, terrible world events seen on the news, etc).

Combined with Jackson's advice about helping kids to be in touch with their thoughts, feelings and sensations, and creating an atmosphere in which they are encouraged to express their authentic perspective (rather than pretend to be someone they're not) I think this could be a powerful approach for parenting.

This could be a huge and fascinating topic and it feels like we've just scratched the surface; I really look forward to hearing what others have to say.

Thanks for sharing, Chris, that's really interesting. I wonder if some people are indeed naturally inclined in this way; it certainly seems that way. It's tricky with kids cuz as a parent it's natural to want them to be relatable, to be able to share perspectives and experiences we find meaningful, and for me an interesting dharma of parenting is being willing to connect with him as his own self without those expectations. So it must be kind of cool when there's that natural shared inclination! I'm excited to hear what other parents especially have to share (but everyone else too of course ;-P)

Wow. Lots of feedback:)

Ona, "pretending to be different kinds of emotions" .. That's an awesome idea. I could see them having a lot of fun with that and it seems like to would also reinforce what Jackson is saying about paying attention to how they feel in their body.

Kategowen: "Unconditional High Regard." That kind of says it all doesn't it:) Easier said than done because my kids drive me crazy sometimes but it's something to work toward

Jake, I dig what your saying about copying behavior. It's something I know about from being a kid myself and I see in my own. No matter how I instruct them to behave, they usually end up behaving how I behave. If the two don't match up, that's my fault.

Thank you all. This has given me quite a bit to work with:)

Ha! where'd all those posts come from? For some reason when I made mine there was just Duane's, Ona's and jacksoon's initial posts. Weird! But now I've got a cool thread to read through...

Things that teach listening carefully are similar - for example learning to identify some bird songs or insect noises and listening for them while outside or hiking.



-ona

Oh yes, excellent, some of my favorite parent moments so far have been like this--- and come to think of it, some of my warmest memories of being parented. Looking closely at insects, trees, listening, smelling, touching things in nature. Definitely!

Dogen Zenji said: 'The ways of the Interwebs are mysterious and hard to understand...'

Dogen Zenji said: 'The ways of the Interwebs are mysterious and hard to understand...'


-kategowen

Excellent!

@jake - yes, my dad was an artist but also a former army scout. So I learned to observe color and form by watching him paint, and also to notice animal tracks, sounds, watching nature (and people!) for subtle behaviors and signs. A vigilance that could be dysfunctional at times, but also cultivated a keen eye and was quite fun when I was a kid.

Yes, often when we are walking to school or hiking I remind them to listen, smell and feel whats around them, to take time to quiet their minds and be in the world.
I think what I'm gathering here overall is similar to what I've discussed with Jake about my own practice, a gentle integration into all of my activities.
So that it is not intrusive but complimentary.

Yeah, I'll admit my bias is towards creating a holistic basis throughout daily life from which to launch more "hard-core" practice. Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks of course. In a real sense my daily life had become a steady stream of inquiry before I developed a consistent formal sitting practice, and I think this sensitivity to the way we're being, to the way we're experiencing life, is what we can encourage in our kids through the kinds of activities we've been talking about.

By really accepting them for who they are we can give them a space to be comfortable with their authentic feelings, perceptions, preferences, ideas, intentions. By encouraging them to take short moments to immerse themselves in sensitivity to the world through their senses and feelings we can help them find a life-long source of freshness and simplicity and peacefulness and connectedness. Through modeling an approach to life that focuses on doing the next practical thing without getting too hung up on our neuroses and dramas, and which emphasizes wise remorse and thoughtful reflection over guilty self-bashing or rumination and worry we can really empower them to respond to challenging circumstances, to their own unskillful behaviors and difficult emotions, from a place of greater acceptance and flow. Good stuff!

This thread has really been inspiring to me!

Yea this has been really educational for me. After reading through most of these responses I sat down with the girls to do their homework and took an approach with "unconditional high regard" in mind and it really changed the way we all interacted. There was much less frustration on everyone's part. Totally fascinating:) I'm excited to integrate this kind of sensitivity into my practice. Really, where better to apply kindness and openness than with one's own family? I had been so concerned with applying practice to my work environment that home became "vacation" and all the fruit of it was being overlooked. Thanks for all the input!

Want to take it to another level? What would unconditional high regard for yourself be like?