The importance of a teacher

Hey,
I have been practicing for about 5 years, and fairly seriously for about 2-3 years. I came from the Goenka tradition, and they are lacking somewhat in the personal teacher department, so I've learned to get by. When I found MCTB and the DhO, I felt that the teacher void had been filled and I have been making decent progress (though still pre-path). Recently, however, I've heard a few people mention how important it is to have an actual teacher who can give you specific guidance.

What are people's experiences with having a teacher, and do you think it was essential to your progress?

Thanks,
-T

I can elaborate more later but I am one of those that thinks it it absolutely essential. The amount of feedback you get is priceless as you traverse unfamiliar territory.

I have not had a teacher besides MCTB and the Dho.
I don't think it is mandatory to have one but probably pretty useful, and if I could find a local and cheap one I would have done so.
Some downsides of teachers...
You pick up their concepts, thoughts on a subject, vocabulary, definitions, maps,etc and this tends to cast your experiences in their light of understanding. Just because someone is ahead of you and has taught others does not make them smarter than you or that they have seen the same things as you. Things outside of their understanding gets downplayed as not important...this may or may not be true. Stay skeptical but open of the information you get from all sources. You are the one doing the work...not the teacher...they are not gonna get enlightened for you...this is your experience.
Don't project stuff upon the teacher. They are just like any other teacher you have ever had, the subject is just a little special. Find one that fits with where you are and if the fit stops working shop around a little and see if the advice is the same from others.
~D
(edit - I assume others will fill in all the awesome reasons to have a teacher...I do not necessarily disagree, I just don't have that experience)

Despite having read MCTB and a lot of Mahasi etc, having a regular teacher made a huge difference to my practice. The other thing I would say is that an individual teacher doesn't have to be the be all and end all - there might be one teacher who is the right one for you for a while, and then you need something different (though probably not a good idea to do this too speedily because you might just be avoiding difficulties being pointed out, or not giving someone a chance to go deeper over time).

DreamWalker wrote: ...
Some downsides of teachers......

Aren't those all upsides???

I also think a teacher is pretty important. I've had three since reading the MCTB. Working with each started with a brave (for me) leap and when it was time to taper off and end, it happened organically without problems. Sometimes feeling "done for now" is a great time to step away from a teacher and let the next phase begin.

I'm a pretty independent person, so it was a big leap of faith to start working with a teacher. But at a certain point, I just had to admit that I was floundering. I also had to admit that I was losing motivation in practice. Yet I sensed that there was more to this practice. ...basically I was feeling the way I did before MCTB came out!

Working with a teacher keeps the rationalization machine in check. Sometimes were having problems but don't want to admit it, sometimes were having successes but don't want to build on them. A teacher helps with that and everything occurs more quickly. It's your own practice that opens things up, but it's a teacher that helps aim you a little better.

As Tom said, it's not a "generic" teacher that is important. But someone you can trust.

If no one is around that stands out, then just go with the "best around", someone you can at least conditionally trust, within the context of your discussions. No need to search for the perfect human being, because that doesn't exist. Another way to say it is "Steal your Art" --- take what you can from a teacher and make it your own, the same way you might study a master brick layer and learn his economy of movement and techniques. The brick layer could be a flawed human, but you are stealing his method for laying brick. Same thing with a meditation teacher. You are stealing how to relate to your own mind (which sounds different than brick laying, but in a curious way it is not).

shargrol wrote: ...
Working with a teacher keeps the rationalization machine in check. Sometimes were having problems but don't want to admit it, sometimes were having successes but don't want to build on them. A teacher helps with that and everything occurs more quickly. It's your own practice that opens things up, but it's a teacher that helps aim you a little better. ...

I place a high value on this, also. I have usually had one key person I run things by on a regular basis, whose feedback I listen to with respect and care (which doesn't mean I always agree with their views, but that's okay). I find that even when one isn't looking for specific practice advice or isn't stuck on some sort of spiritual problem it's very balancing to have regular conversation with someone who can point out any drifting into vainglory, self-obsession, poor judgement, gracelessness and so forth. My husband is also great for calling me on any dumb stuff, and I am grateful for that.

shargrol wrote: ... You are stealing....

Which has interesting implications: that the teacher doesn't really want to share any information, so you have to sneak and take the good parts that the teacher will otherwise keep away from you...? or that you and the teacher are not on the same team, are in competition, so you have to outwit them and fend for yourself?

Ona Kiser wrote:

shargrol wrote: ... You are stealing....

Which has interesting implications: that the teacher doesn't really want to share any information, so you have to sneak and take the good parts that the teacher will otherwise keep away from you...? or that you and the teacher are not on the same team, are in competition, so you have to outwit them and fend for yourself?

Hmm... that's an expression from Japanese apprenticeships, so it might be too poetic rather than clear.

What I mean is that it isn't that you simply "get" something from a teacher, like they say "oh, you want mental clarity, here it is." Working with a teacher is kinda multi-dimensional, you're getting clarity by watching them, watching yourself, getting instincts, as well as fine tuning the surface practice method. I felt like pointing this out was important, because it's important to really go into a teacher-student relationship and stay wide open to the interaction. So "steal" really points to being aware of subtlety and really getting it. A teacher might get you into the bank but your practice has to crack the vault. Steal means not only do you kinda see it, like the pickpocket knowing where your wallet is, but also finding out how to take it.

So it's just for what it's worth. That little part of my post might be confusing, but I love the expression "steal your art". It also reminds me of the Picasso quote "Good artists borrow, great artists steal." Sorry about the confusing poetry.

DreamWalker wrote: Some downsides of teachers...
You pick up their concepts, thoughts on a subject, vocabulary, definitions, maps,etc and this tends to cast your experiences in their light of understanding. Just because someone is ahead of you and has taught others does not make them smarter than you or that they have seen the same things as you. Things outside of their understanding gets downplayed as not important...this may or may not be true. Stay skeptical but open of the information you get from all sources. You are the one doing the work...not the teacher...they are not gonna get enlightened for you...this is your experience.

These seem to me to be the exact same pitfalls or downside that one can fall in to while trying to do this alone. For example, to me, what I see on the DhO, is a the majority of people taking MCTB and Daniel's concepts, thoughts, vocabulary, and maps and casting their experiences through his. Everyone is very individual!! No one is going to experience these things quite like Daniel. He is very unique and if you talk to him in person, you can shake out very different qualities of his experiences than what he talks about in his book.

By getting a competent teacher, they can provide a constant feedback loop to keep you motivated, on track and more efficient. Yes, there will always be experiences that you may have that the teacher doesn't but sometime focusing on those can be the pitfall's themselves. A good teacher will steer you towards what is important to focus on. That being said, I have had a teacher from early on and still do, so I am a little biased, but of all the people i have seen progress rapidly in meditation, having a teacher is the common ground.

Another memory just flooded in that made me remember why I got a teacher in the first place. When I started meditating, it was on my own with the "help" of some Buddhist books that talked a lot about meditation, but little about how to do it. Fast forward to 8 months later I had a massive A&P event but I had no idea what it was. I searched and searched the internet for answers and finally found DhO, Buddhist Geeks and KFD. I thought "Ohh yeah, this is for me!!!"

So I joined, described what happened and asked what it was. I got so many differing opinions that I was just as (or more) confused as before. I tried and tried to make that "event" happen again and eventually got very frustrated. So I decided to get a one-on-one teacher. After my first talk with my teacher, I no longer cared what that event was and learned that it was normal and to keep practicing in a specific way. 2 days of following his instructions and BAM, I crossed the A&P again, and it all started rolling along from there.

shargrol wrote:

Ona Kiser wrote:

shargrol wrote: ... You are stealing....

Which has interesting implications: that the teacher doesn't really want to share any information, so you have to sneak and take the good parts that the teacher will otherwise keep away from you...? or that you and the teacher are not on the same team, are in competition, so you have to outwit them and fend for yourself?

Hmm... that's an expression from Japanese apprenticeships, so it might be too poetic rather than clear.

What I mean is that it isn't that you simply "get" something from a teacher, like they say "oh, you want mental clarity, here it is." Working with a teacher is kinda multi-dimensional, you're getting clarity by watching them, watching yourself, getting instincts, as well as fine tuning the surface practice method. I felt like pointing this out was important, because it's important to really go into a teacher-student relationship and stay wide open to the interaction. So "steal" really points to being aware of subtlety and really getting it. A teacher might get you into the bank but your practice has to crack the vault. Steal means not only do you kinda see it, like the pickpocket knowing where your wallet is, but also finding out how to take it.

So it's just for what it's worth. That little part of my post might be confusing, but I love the expression "steal your art". It also reminds me of the Picasso quote "Good artists borrow, great artists steal." Sorry about the confusing poetry.

Aha - context is everything.

I'll just throw a few more thoughts in the pile, and these are things I tended to notice much later in practice (post-awakening) in regards to working with a teacher. I don't recall being aware of them before that. They might not be relevant to other people.

-Working with a teacher represents or embodies issues around trust. There's interesting entanglement around trusting authority in a generic sense, trusting the awakening process, trusting reality, trusting that you will be safe even as things fall apart or transform, trusting in God, and so forth.
-It can also express/embody/represent issues around control, which are similar to the above. Fear of losing control, fear of someone else being in control (a teacher may represent that fear, even if the teacher is not remotely "controlling"), fear of being taken somewhere unfamiliar or not being in charge of the plan.
-Similarly around vulnerablility: again, very related to the above, in that when we work with a teacher we take the risk of telling someone in an intimate way what's going on "inside" us, or what's going on in our life, and hope that we will not be shamed, hurt, mocked, or chastised. And sometimes even a gentle piece of solid advice from a teacher can hit a vulnerable spot and set off our defensive reactions. Learning to be present to that reactivity in a social context, with someone else, carries one through all this territory of vulnerability, fear, trust, etc that can get very deep in certain phases of practice.

Other ideas in this regard? Those came to mind at the moment.

What everyone said, both in favor and otherwise.

Here's something: what is it with people who work with a teacher and then come and say, for example, "my teacher doesn't want to teach me practice X, but you seem to know something about that, can you teach it to me?"

And then I go, "But, like, they're your teacher, right? As in student-teacher-relationship? You trust them and all?" - "Yeah, but... I really think practice X is important for me now" - and back and forth... and I make really sure they understand that they are disregarding their teacher's instructions by learning practice X now.

I have nothing against teaching people what I know, and I do not have any formal student-teacher setups going with anyone, in either capacity, but I can't help but wonder, if I did the teacher thing, if I would not get really annoyed at students knowing better and still insisting to be my students. Or, if I did the student thing, how I'd rationalize to myself and my teacher that I trust them fully and all, but I had to totally disregard their instructions.

So basically, to answer my question myself, an illustration of the trust issues someone, I think Ona, mentioned.

Cheers,
Florian

Good Artists Copy; Great Artists Steal

Having a teacher has been indispensable for me.

Ona Kiser wrote:

DreamWalker wrote: ...
Some downsides of teachers......

Aren't those all upsides???

I wasn't referring to all the good teachers that abound....I was talking about teachers who drift into vainglory, self-obsession, poor judgement, gracelessness and so forth

I find that working with a teacher one-on-one leads to better progress than I'd see on my own when learning any skill. A good teacher can reflect blind spots back to you.

For meditation, having a teacher is especially useful when navigating the difficult territories of the dark night, dukkha nanas, etc. There was a lot of power in Kenneth pointing out that I might be experiencing the dark night for the first time when I described it.

Well, I'm gonna start a search for a teacher then.

It's really nice to hear this side of things. Like I said, I've sat my courses at Goenka centers and I've heard so many question and answers between students and teachers that I can basically form the answer to any question asked by a student. The teachers might know more, but they're limited in what they can say. It was a blue moon when I actually heard something that was new and insightful. I don't want to disparage the Goenka tradition too much––they're great at what they do, which is take a large body of people and give them a good foundation in Vipassana (for better or worse, since they don't put the experience in broad context).

Wow. Yes, this teacher-student relationship has to be just the most intense interpersonal stuff. I've felt moments of it with certain teachers, even though I wasn't their official ongoing student. That vulnerability is cavernous; trust and gratitude being in equal measure to the vulnerability. You can kind of understand why guru devotion is the Tibetans' daily practice.

I started practicing in 2011. At first I was so, so keen on finding a teacher, but not knowing how to go about it, how to assess qualifications and suitability, and then, even if those things were settled, how to ask a teacher to take me on, that I finally just settled on the old adage, "When the student is ready, then the teacher will appear." I quit seeking a teacher actively and just trusted that things will unfold as they will. And then, after I quit attending a local Tibetan center (with very realized Geshes), because I wanted to get on with it but couldn't get past the Mushroom Factor and the impenetrable, multi-layered hierarchy, I started reading in the Thai Forest tradition, and then I was asked to join a reading group that was reading MCTB. From MCTB, I took not the meditation methods, but the maps, which have been and are indispensable. So I feel I made faster progress by myself than with highly realized local geshes surrounding me, with, honestly, a pretty lazy practice, little time put in. I'm not sure I would have had as good results if I hadn't pieced my path together myself (Thai Forest meditation + Daniel's maps). I imagine, though, that I'm soon going to be facing a time when hints here and there on forums will show me primarily that I'm stuck and need definitive direction.

Anyway . . . how did you all go about finding and securing your teachers? Is it best to have someone local, as in the same city?

Tons of Kenneth Folk trained teachers available thru skype...The people here know them better than I. I met several at buddhist geeks.
~D

When I worked with pragmatic dharma teachers I only ever did it via skype.